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Rockwell help?
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andy1canada
Posted 2017-12-15 9:55 AM (#5192)
Subject: Rockwell help?


Veteran

100100252525
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada
Howdy,

Curiosity and necessity have me trying to dig up some quotes on having custom ring & pinion sets made up for our beloved F-140 diff's.

So far it's looking a little scary (read: cost prohibitive) but since I don't recall any previous conclusions published or shared on either of the FMC Forums, I've resolved to see this through.

I'm in contact with a shop in Illinois I was referred to and the fellow has asked if I can send him some pics of our 4.625 ring & pinion set; preferably with a ruler or tape measure in the background for better reference, or, better yet a few vernier measurements as well.

The shop did say that if the order could be doubled that a 15 to 20% savings could be realized. I asked him how big of a run would he have to get to get the price per set down around $2/K (vs the $5/k range he mentioned) and he's asked for some pics with simple measurements to get to a closer - ballpark - estimate. If this gets serious, they'd still need an actual sample gear-set in hand for a precise quote.

I'm angling for a set of 3.83's for my coach. (34" tires + .69 overdrive @ 70 mph = 1828 rpm)

So, anyone out there got Rockwell F-140 apart right now, that would care to share some ring & pinion pics and simple measurements with me?

Be much obliged if you could.

Thanks!

Terry
#846



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LCAC_Man
Posted 2017-12-15 1:38 PM (#5193 - in reply to #5192)
Subject: RE: Rockwell help?


Extreme Veteran

500
Location: Oceanside, CA
andy1canada - 2017-12-15 7:55 AM

Howdy,

Curiosity and necessity have me trying to dig up some quotes on having custom ring & pinion sets made up for our beloved F-140 diff's.

What necessity? Install the new power-train and drive it...if in fact the gears aren't to your liking then change them later...I bet you find they work great.

andy1canada - 2017-12-15 7:55 AM
I'm angling for a set of 3.83's for my coach. (34" tires + .69 overdrive @ 70 mph = 1828 rpm)

That's going to be too high. You'll be lugging a lot running warmer than you should and it will be hell on the torque converter... you'll spend a lot more time at 60mph than 70...I watch my scan gauge mph monitor a lot, you'd be surprised how much better the mpg is(for a given speed) at a higher rpm in 5th than lugging a bit in 6th..
I can promise you that at over 15k lbs you are going to want to be running over 2000rpm on the highway.

Edited by LCAC_Man 2017-12-15 1:49 PM
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andy1canada
Posted 2017-12-15 2:07 PM (#5194 - in reply to #5192)
Subject: Re: Rockwell help?


Veteran

100100252525
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada
Thanks Len.

The 12-valve makes peak torque @ 1600 rpm; one source claimed 1500 rpm. I know the Cummins don't like to be lugged but I've told that cruising about 200 rpm above peak torque is ideal. I know from driving my 95' 12-valve (4.10 diff) pickup, that 2000 rpm is screaming but that said, it ain't running that good now and I'm trying to get to the bottom of it. Changing out the fuel filter today to see if that helps. She only has 400,000 miles on it.

Conversely, the trucker I bought my (coach) 12 valve from - who really knows these engines better than me - advised that these engines don't like to cruise over 2/K.

You are actually right-on about the 60 mph thing. I spend most of my time there with only the occasional obligatory burst - to pass a Winnebago.

I'll sort this out somehow.

Thanks, your advise is not falling on deaf ears!
Terry
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LCAC_Man
Posted 2017-12-15 4:34 PM (#5195 - in reply to #5192)
Subject: Re: Rockwell help?


Extreme Veteran

500
Location: Oceanside, CA
Duramax is also max torque at 1600rpm...
Everything I've ever been taught about putting together drivetrains has been to gear them such that the the engine rpm is as close to the middle between max torque (1600rpm) and max hp (2500rpm) so that would put you at 2050rpms at your most common driving speed; if you do most of your driving at 65mph (I find that's about the most comfortable average in my FMC) with a .69 overdrive/34" tires you're perfect gear ratio would be basically the stock 4.62.
It doesn't cost any extra to put it together and drive it with your existing gears first..
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andy1canada
Posted 2017-12-15 7:41 PM (#5196 - in reply to #5192)
Subject: Re: Rockwell help?


Veteran

100100252525
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada
Whoa... there you again Lenny - talkin' perfect sense!

Have to say you got me thinking and that's a good thing at this planning stage. I've only owned a couple of diesel work trucks before, a 1-ton 6.9 Econoline and a 7.3 IDI ex-Uhaul box truck, and I certainly am no expert.

Neither of those trucks, nor my current older 12 valve pickup for that matter, were ever expected to haul 15 to 20,000/lbs anywhere let alone up a long grade. So your argument for spinning the old Cummins slightly faster could make sense here. Honestly, I feel like I've overlooked the weight-thing some and if I go and drop a chunk-of-change on bigger wheels and tires - when that money would be better spent on things like my Pacbrake, the trans build, the controller and wait... here it comes - a Badgerland propane injection system - I'd really look like a douche-bag if the current diff ratio/wheels were just fine as they were.

Sharing your ideas and experience with me and others underscores the true value of internet Forums: gets people thinking.

I'm going to set this 'diff-shit' on the back burner for now and focus my comparatively scant resources on more important things.

See, an old-dog can learn some new tricks, or, at least get to thinking about them.

Thanks,
Terry
#846

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LCAC_Man
Posted 2017-12-16 9:01 AM (#5197 - in reply to #5192)
Subject: Re: Rockwell help?


Extreme Veteran

500
Location: Oceanside, CA
Forums are invaluable for this type of thing...just seeing something someone else did that you don't like/didn't work keeps you from making that same mistake..
There's a lot of hard work to do just to get your engine/trans groomed and healthy first, then the fabrication to actually get it in place...then cooling system and intercooler system installation/fabrication (if you say you're not going to run an intercooler I'll block every future message from you), fuel system mods, structural mods to the rear of your coach to support that huge weight addition....and on...and on...you've got plenty to actually work on without much "planning"...a lot of work is just in the "git-r-dun" column. I can tell you from experience that the problems that will give you the greatest grief will be those that you won't find until you're in the middle of it...you won't be able to pre-plan your way through them.


Edited by LCAC_Man 2017-12-16 9:31 AM
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andy1canada
Posted 2017-12-16 11:06 AM (#5198 - in reply to #5192)
Subject: Re: Rockwell help?


Veteran

100100252525
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada
Morning,

Stock intercooler came with the engine, along with a new starter. Engine is a P-pump with about 130,000 miles on it. I figure I'm good so far with the engine and trans (core) as I'm only in $1900 for the pair and I have a good T-case to sell to recoup some of that outlay. My brother-inlaw and I will rebuild the trans with a kit and some recommended new parts from TCS Products over on the mainland.

Speaking of intercooler, I'm also exploring the potential of cutting more ventilation holes in the center rear door and aft port-side panel next to it; basically, make the whole ass-end perforated same the as starboard radiator panel. I could squeeze the intercooler and trans/oil coolers in there and add a second smaller electric fan to handle that job. Would also help balance the ass-end again as I'll be losing 100 to 200/lbs on that side running with a lighter genset.

The more I think about adding more (much more) ventilation to the rear of the engine house, the more I like it. I've never been comfortable with just how hot it really gets back there and I believe there's room for improvement in that department/compartment.

First I have to decide whether to go ahead and start on this swap this winter and risk not getting it done on time for the Chama Rally, or, put it on hold and let the 'Ole-guzzler' take us all on one last run. Looks like it will be a great venue next year and we hope to make it.

Terry
#846

Ordinary Veteran
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Location: "...the moon Alice! To the moon!"

Edited by andy1canada 2017-12-16 11:08 AM
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BigRabbitMan
Posted 2017-12-16 11:15 AM (#5199 - in reply to #5198)
Subject: Re: Rockwell help?



Elite Veteran

500100100100100
Location: Cottage Grove, OR
First I have to decide whether to go ahead and start on this swap this winter and risk not getting it done on time for the Chama Rally, or, put it on hold and let the 'Ole-guzzler' take us all on one last run. Looks like it will be a great venue next year and we hope to make it. Terry #846


The advantage of not decommissioning the 440 until after the Chama rally is that you will be able see and touch Cummins, Detroit and Duramax engine installs all in one place in addition to Bill's overdrive 440 setup.
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LCAC_Man
Posted 2017-12-17 8:03 AM (#5201 - in reply to #5198)
Subject: Re: Rockwell help?


Extreme Veteran

500
Location: Oceanside, CA
andy1canada - 2017-12-16 9:06 AM



The more I think about adding more (much more) ventilation to the rear of the engine house, the more I like it. I've never been comfortable with just how hot it really gets back there and I believe there's room for improvement in that department/compartment.

That's one area where I'm really happy with my swap, I can drive all day and immediately get in the engine bay afterwards without risking 2nd degree burns, it stays nice and cool in there now.

andy1canada - 2017-12-16 9:06 AM
First I have to decide whether to go ahead and start on this swap this winter and risk not getting it done on time for the Chama Rally, or, put it on hold and let the 'Ole-guzzler' take us all on one last run. Looks like it will be a great venue next year and we hope to make it.

Sounds like you have plenty of work to me without putting your hands on your coach...rebuilding your trans, finding a 2wd adapter/output shaft, putting together a parking brake system, researching proper output yoke/prop shaft parts all will take time. You probably need to do front and rear main seals, thermostats, researching/installing proper pusher fan and a waterpump on the 12v (crazy not to with it out) and check the turbo to see if it needs new bearings (they get pretty sloppy at about 125k miles) and then any of the performance stuff you mentioned (fuel plate mods, etc...). Sounds to me like you're loafing it.. :D


Edited by LCAC_Man 2017-12-17 8:03 AM
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andy1canada
Posted 2017-12-17 8:42 AM (#5202 - in reply to #5192)
Subject: Re: Rockwell help?


Veteran

100100252525
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada
Morning,

Well, by the looks of it my itinerary is complete. Thanks again, Len.

If not having the time or piles of money kicking around to knock this project off in 3 or 4 months qualifies as, "...loafing it.." well then, yes, I guess I am :-0

Life calls...

Terry
#846



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BigRabbitMan
Posted 2017-12-17 12:43 PM (#5204 - in reply to #5202)
Subject: Re: Rockwell help?



Elite Veteran

500100100100100
Location: Cottage Grove, OR
andy1canada - 2017-12-17 6:42 AM Morning, Well, by the looks of it my itinerary is complete. Thanks again, Len.
If not having the time or piles of money kicking around to knock this project off in 3 or 4 months qualifies as, "...loafing it.." well then, yes, I guess I am :-0 Life calls... Terry #846


Having or not having "piles of money" to do the conversion is not the key factor in the length of time that it takes to do a proper conversion. It is all of the unanticipated but necessary things that you need to deal with and solve and do that take the time. You are looking at a one year project if you do not "loaf". You are not loafing as you are thinking of and analyzing various options that will be involved with the swap. In my case due to various conditions and life events (like moving from one state to another) the swap took FIVE years. "Life calls" will be a constant interruption whether you expect it or not.

This is the kind of project that you do not want to rush as it is very, very difficult and time consuming to go back and redo something that needs to be redone/redesigned. This is why you will find inoperative vehicles of all types with half finished projects up for sale at very low prices. Len was able to work on his project almost every day and had the experience of having done some other builds previously. That is unusual, but it still took him a year to complete his conversion. He did have a number of things to do other than the basic engine swap which added to the length of time it took him to be on the road.

I will see you in Chama, NM in July! Will have some long conversations.
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fcrives3
Posted 2017-12-18 9:28 AM (#5205 - in reply to #5192)
Subject: Re: Rockwell help?


Regular

2525
Location: Greensboro, NC
Terry I believe I have a stock Ring and pinion in a box if I still have it I will let you know
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andy1canada
Posted 2017-12-18 10:14 AM (#5206 - in reply to #5192)
Subject: Re: Rockwell help?


Veteran

100100252525
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada
Awesome, thanks!

Terry
#846
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LCAC_Man
Posted 2017-12-18 11:19 AM (#5207 - in reply to #5202)
Subject: Re: Rockwell help?


Extreme Veteran

500
Location: Oceanside, CA
andy1canada - 2017-12-17 6:42 AM

If not having the time or piles of money kicking around to knock this project off in 3 or 4 months qualifies as, "...loafing it.." well then, yes, I guess I am :-0


If you are just doing the engine/trans swap I think Stephen's estimate of 1yr is a safe bet. Getting as much of the "pre-swap work" that I mentioned done as you can could chop many months off your actual FMC down time, you could return from Chama and then pull it apart and probably have it done by the end of the year or shortly thereafter.
Do you have a large shop to work in or are you working outside? Access to a welder (able to do it yourself)?

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andy1canada
Posted 2017-12-18 1:05 PM (#5208 - in reply to #5192)
Subject: Re: Rockwell help?


Veteran

100100252525
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada
Outside; tarp-shed 36 x 12. Own a Mill 211 with a spoolgun. Haven't welded since highschool, so, four or five years now :-0
Actually tried out he welder after I bought it 2 yrs ago when I did the dryer-outlet cord conversion. Hooked it up and grounded it the old vise I had a pc of scrap clamped in; it went - pzzztt! - and I jumped about 2 feet in the air then shut it down. Got a tank of gas to go with it. Although I have every intention of learning to use the Miller - its a 'Millermatic' so a monkey (or Trump) can do decent welds soon enough - I will get my son's friend to do the critical stuff like engine mounts etc.

I'm now trying to clear out one end of the 20 ft sea can I have and although nearly a half of it is for storage, the rest will be my shop for messing with the engine/trans etc. Good workbench and a cool portable welding table, too. I have an idea to cut the two heavy steel doors off the end of it and frame in a standard double steel door with a side and overhead window and a couple of ventilation fans. Egress would be soooo much easier and the extra light won't hurt either. Cut one more air intake fan from the back end of it and boom, there's my welding shop.

Wish we had a website that you could upload your posts directly to each post as you write, you know, similar to all the other forums, Yahoo notwithstanding. I'm sure it would have easier for you, too, with all the pics you posted of your project. Not that you didn't do a good job with the album you posted, it's great, but all of us know it came with a certain amount of pain and pissing around.

Terry
#846
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LCAC_Man
Posted 2017-12-19 10:07 AM (#5211 - in reply to #5208)
Subject: Re: Rockwell help?


Extreme Veteran

500
Location: Oceanside, CA
I think that you're disparaging the Monkey's intelligence with that comparison..
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fcrives3
Posted 2017-12-21 12:15 PM (#5216 - in reply to #5192)
Subject: Re: Rockwell help?


Regular

2525
Location: Greensboro, NC
Terry just wanted you to know that I haven't forgotten about you I will look as soon as I can get a chance, being a delivery driver with Fedex right now it is kinda hectic to get anything done, very long days and even shorter nights
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andy1canada
Posted 2017-12-21 12:30 PM (#5217 - in reply to #5192)
Subject: Re: Rockwell help?


Veteran

100100252525
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada
Fedex, Christmas, busy? I don't understand!

No worries on this. If you can do it, great, I'll follow up with the gear maker; regardless, I'm going to take Lenny's sage advice and try out the wheels I'm running now if/when I ever get around to this swap.

What's your name? Sorry, if you posted it previously I've forgotten. Not that you're a particularly forgettable-dude, my mind just ain't what it used to be :-P

Thanks and Merry Christmas!

Terry
#846
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fcrives3
Posted 2017-12-21 1:05 PM (#5218 - in reply to #5192)
Subject: Re: Rockwell help?


Regular

2525
Location: Greensboro, NC
Sorry I get in a rush and forget to say thanks for the help and even my name. I am Chip Rives form Greensboro NC I have # 471(8.2 diesel), 721 and 934 are my two gases. I appreciate all the help and advice that you guys have given me as parts and knowledge (remembrance) is scarce here where i'm at.
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andy1canada
Posted 2017-12-21 1:11 PM (#5219 - in reply to #5192)
Subject: Re: Rockwell help?


Veteran

100100252525
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada
Well, Chip, first things first: Since you own 3 - FMC's I figure that's gotta' be worth at least 2 more stars, eh Stephen?

You could be well on your way to becoming the very first 'Mega Veteran'!

Oh wait, Billy's up to six or eight coaches now in various states of dress, so you might have some competition there.

Raza, raza!

Hope you feel welcome here, Chip.
They sure made this 'Canuck' feel welcome.

Terry
#846
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