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ISO: Rockwell 4.33 differential gear set?
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fcrives3
Posted 2017-10-12 8:41 AM (#5069 - in reply to #4957)
Subject: Re: ISO: Rockwell 4.33 differential gear set?


Contributor

25
Location: Greensboro, NC
So Len is there any hope for me to do an overdrive tranny for the 440 seeing all of the upgrades that you have done (cause I am not very mechanically inclined)? Gear Vendors has already told me that they don't have an overdrive system that will work on a pusher.
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LCAC_Man
Posted 2017-10-12 8:54 AM (#5070 - in reply to #5069)
Subject: Re: ISO: Rockwell 4.33 differential gear set?


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Location: Oceanside, CA
fcrives3 - 2017-10-12 6:41 AM

So Len is there any hope for me to do an overdrive tranny for the 440 seeing all of the upgrades that you have done (cause I am not very mechanically inclined)? Gear Vendors has already told me that they don't have an overdrive system that will work on a pusher.

Sure, just take a look at the A518 overdrive that Bill just completed on his rig.
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LCAC_Man
Posted 2017-10-12 8:59 AM (#5071 - in reply to #5068)
Subject: Re: ISO: Rockwell 4.33 differential gear set?


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Location: Oceanside, CA
andy1canada - 2017-10-12 6:06 AM
I've been told the sweet-spot is 1800 - 1900 for best economy.


Not at 15000-16000lbs...you'll be lugging at 1800(unless you do performance upgrades to the engine) and start to have cooling problems.
1800-1900 is nice for a 7500lbs truck...you're powering two of them though..
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andy1canada
Posted 2017-10-12 8:59 AM (#5072 - in reply to #4957)
Subject: Re: ISO: Rockwell 4.33 differential gear set?


Veteran

10010025
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada
I'd second that. Bill & Lou have been working on this for a long time and it's tailored for this application.

Terry
#846
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andy1canada
Posted 2017-10-12 9:05 AM (#5073 - in reply to #4957)
Subject: Re: ISO: Rockwell 4.33 differential gear set?


Veteran

10010025
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada
4" exhaust; better intake; timing bump and minor fuel-plate mod. Boom - 80 to 100/hp, 150/ft pds and better fuel economy.

In it's current stock configuration, if I'm not mistaken, this engine already makes more torque at about 1/2 the rpm of the 440'.

I hear what you are saying though. It's far better to over-rev a 12 valve (slightly) than to lug them.

Terry
#846
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B. Sitton
Posted 2017-10-12 9:07 AM (#5074 - in reply to #5072)
Subject: Re: ISO: Rockwell 4.33 differential gear set?


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1001002525
Location: Ignacio Colorado
http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/photos/show-album.asp?albumid=133&p...
Here is the pic of the overdrive bolted to the 440
Bill
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fcrives3
Posted 2017-10-12 10:16 AM (#5075 - in reply to #4957)
Subject: Re: ISO: Rockwell 4.33 differential gear set?


Contributor

25
Location: Greensboro, NC
So Bill where is your parking brake since it was incorporated on the tail shaft of the 727? Think I will stick to Len's idea leave a day or two maybe even a week early and just drive 55 looks like to much hassle.
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dkarnath
Posted 2017-10-12 11:49 AM (#5076 - in reply to #5075)
Subject: Re: ISO: Rockwell 4.33 differential gear set?



Extreme Veteran

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Location: Medford, OR
FMC’s are not easily modified. There’s no such thing as an easy Powertrain upgrade. Bill/Lou have been trying to come up with a bolt in upgrade, but even there project isn’t “bolt in”, very close though. I like lens idea for using an LS package, but still your looking at big money and serious modifications. I’m just going to burn out my 440 driving 62 mph getting 6 mpg. I can only imagine the FMC hack jobs out there with diesel conversions in them. I don’t think anyone contributing to this forum right now would do a “hack” job though. All 6 of us!! Lol
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B. Sitton
Posted 2017-10-12 12:25 PM (#5077 - in reply to #5076)
Subject: Re: ISO: Rockwell 4.33 differential gear set?


Veteran

1001002525
Location: Ignacio Colorado
I don’t have a park brake now but one is in the works. Does your park brake work?? Do you set it and let the coach rest on it before shifting into park? That is the best use of one, to keep all the force off the park pawl and stress off the shift cable getting it back out of park. They never get used right anyway.
A 12 inch disc brake mounted on the differential yoke is what’s being worked on.
So far it seems like I will be able to be into overdrive around 50. I’m up above 6,000 feet elevation so down where the other 5 of you live this thing is going to be great!
Bill
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B. Sitton
Posted 2017-10-12 12:36 PM (#5078 - in reply to #4957)
Subject: Re: ISO: Rockwell 4.33 differential gear set?


Veteran

1001002525
Location: Ignacio Colorado
This overdrive looks like a 518 on the outside but on the inside it is mostly the 47RH diesel/V-10 geartrain. 5 pinion planetary, the 6 pinion came in the 48RE. I have one set of the 6 pinion gear train but think it is overkill. Chrysler kept adding more but the failure was found to be lack of lubrication due to clogged coolers. I think the 4 pinion would be fine with a 440 but I went for the 5 pinion.
It is a bolt in. Differential has to be moved yes but not a total refab to the coach. Engine could be moved back the 2” pretty easy but moving weight forward is much better than moving it back.
Bill
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fcrives3
Posted 2017-10-12 12:39 PM (#5079 - in reply to #4957)
Subject: Re: ISO: Rockwell 4.33 differential gear set?


Contributor

25
Location: Greensboro, NC
Yes I still have the original parking brake system and it does work so is there something better? #471 has the Detroit and Allison combo but the parking brake isn't working it has the disc on it but most of the parts are missing so I have to get that working also
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LCAC_Man
Posted 2017-10-12 2:30 PM (#5080 - in reply to #5079)
Subject: Re: ISO: Rockwell 4.33 differential gear set?


Extreme Veteran

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Location: Oceanside, CA
fcrives3 - 2017-10-12 10:39 AM

#471 has the Detroit and Allison combo but the parking brake isn't working it has the disc on it but most of the parts are missing so I have to get that working also

If you already have an Allison 545 with an SAE3 bellhousing you can swap up to a modern allison and get a stand alone controller(or modify a stock one). C4500/5500 Chev/GMC Kodiaks came with SAE3 bellhousing allisons that have a huge parking brake (I have one of these transmissions on my coach, I just swapped to a GM bellhousing). Another great donor would be a school bus with an Allison 2400 (also SAE bellhousing, has park paw and drum parking brake).
There's a whole section on allison swaps to mechanical engines on the 4BTSwaps site.
If you have a 440 with an SAE adapter you can do the same.
Something like this would be a good fit: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Freightliner-Allison-1000-Series-Automatic-...
or
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2004-Allison-2400-Transmission-Has-park-bra...




Edited by LCAC_Man 2017-10-12 2:37 PM
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LCAC_Man
Posted 2017-10-13 10:21 AM (#5082 - in reply to #5080)
Subject: Re: ISO: Rockwell 4.33 differential gear set?


Extreme Veteran

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Location: Oceanside, CA
Here's a picture of Stephen's old eng/trans combo with the SAE adapter between the eng and trans:
http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/photos/show-album.asp?albumid=77&ph...
That adapter piece would remain, and you could bolt up the SAE Allison 1000/2400. The factory FMC shifter and cable works fine with the allison. You'd need a stand alone controller and to install/wire up the tow/haul and tap shift switches
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fcrives3
Posted 2017-10-13 11:07 AM (#5083 - in reply to #4957)
Subject: Re: ISO: Rockwell 4.33 differential gear set?


Contributor

25
Location: Greensboro, NC
So did he have to move the rear end or what mods were done to make it fit? I like that set up how did it perform
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LCAC_Man
Posted 2017-10-13 12:18 PM (#5084 - in reply to #5083)
Subject: Re: ISO: Rockwell 4.33 differential gear set?


Extreme Veteran

1001001001002525
Location: Oceanside, CA
that's the same allison 545 that you have behind the 8.2 so for trans performance it would be the same, they are good reliable units...just no lock up converter and no overdrive. I don't think Stephen ever moved his differential, he can chime in on more details about that setup.

edit:
I just realized you have two different coaches you're talking about...Stephen really would be the best source of info on how the 545 was behind the 440, given the labor to do that type of swap and the availability of the newer allisons (with od and lock up) now I can't imagine it making sense to install a 545 unless you're existing 727 was shot and you got a great deal on a 545..

Edited by LCAC_Man 2017-10-13 12:24 PM
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fcrives3
Posted 2017-10-13 12:33 PM (#5085 - in reply to #4957)
Subject: Re: ISO: Rockwell 4.33 differential gear set?


Contributor

25
Location: Greensboro, NC
Ok educate me on how to tell what an SAE3 bell housing is or what to look for because there are several Allison's for sale on Craigslist with different year ranges so if I purchase one to put behind the 440 I want to make sure I get the right unit
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BigRabbitMan
Posted 2017-10-13 12:57 PM (#5086 - in reply to #5084)
Subject: Re: ISO: Rockwell 4.33 differential gear set?



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Location: Cottage Grove, OR
LCAC_Man - 2017-10-13 10:18 AM that's the same allison 545 that you have behind the 8.2 so for trans performance it would be the same, they are good reliable units...just no lock up converter and no overdrive. I don't think Stephen ever moved his differential, he can chime in on more details about that setup.

edit: I just realized you have two different coaches you're talking about...Stephen really would be the best source of info on how the 545 was behind the 440, given the labor to do that type of swap and the availability of the newer allisons (with od and lock up) now I can't imagine it making sense to install a 545 unless you're existing 727 was shot and you got a great deal on a 545..


In my case the engine was moved 2" rearward to make room for the 545. At the time, my 727 had failed so I needed to rebuild the 727 or install a different tranny. I had the 545 installed, but would NOT recommend installing one now due to the lack of lockup and lack of an overdrive. Not worth the cost and trouble. In retrospect, I should of just had the 727 rebuilt. If running a 440 and you want to go to an Allison, then the only one to consider is the 5 spd in my opinion. Bill is doing a special build and there may be other trannies out there that offer an overdrive and lockup but I don't know of any. For other ones I think you would have to also change the engine out as well. If you want to modernize and stay with gas, then I would say to look at a GM 8.1 engine and Allison 5 spd trany as a matched combination.

If you are not mechanically inclined, I don't recommend doing any conversion as it is easy to mess things up with non-compatible units which are difficult to later get service for. If not mechanically inclined, just run the coaches as they are configured and focus on doing an excellent job of service and maintenance of the whole coach.
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B. Sitton
Posted 2017-10-13 1:12 PM (#5087 - in reply to #5086)
Subject: Re: ISO: Rockwell 4.33 differential gear set?


Veteran

1001002525
Location: Ignacio Colorado
Ok here is a dilemma for you. I have a transit with 440/Allison 4 speed. Easy swap to the overdrive I built as the Allison is already 2” longer than the 727 so nothing will have to move for my overdrive. Just some driveshaft magic as the transit has the next bigger u-joints. OR, it already has the Allison adapter and shifter so an Allison 5 speed is an easier swap too.
If I go Chrysler the Allison, adapter, and all hardware will be available.
Bill
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LCAC_Man
Posted 2017-10-13 9:40 PM (#5088 - in reply to #5085)
Subject: Re: ISO: Rockwell 4.33 differential gear set?


Extreme Veteran

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Location: Oceanside, CA
fcrives3 - 2017-10-13 10:33 AM

Ok educate me on how to tell what an SAE3 bell housing is or what to look for because there are several Allison's for sale on Craigslist with different year ranges so if I purchase one to put behind the 440 I want to make sure I get the right unit

This will help you identify the different SAE versions: http://www.hayescouplings.com/pdf/HOW%20TO%20DETERMINE%20WHAT%20SAE...

Getting the 440 to SAE3 adapter will be more difficult than finding an SAE3 configured allison.
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LCAC_Man
Posted 2017-10-14 8:23 AM (#5090 - in reply to #5087)
Subject: Re: ISO: Rockwell 4.33 differential gear set?


Extreme Veteran

1001001001002525
Location: Oceanside, CA
B. Sitton - 2017-10-13 11:12 AM

Ok here is a dilemma for you. I have a transit with 440/Allison 4 speed. Easy swap to the overdrive I built as the Allison is already 2” longer than the 727 so nothing will have to move for my overdrive. Just some driveshaft magic as the transit has the next bigger u-joints. OR, it already has the Allison adapter and shifter so an Allison 5 speed is an easier swap too.
If I go Chrysler the Allison, adapter, and all hardware will be available.
Bill


Sounds like an opportunity...not a dilemma
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andy1canada
Posted 2017-10-14 10:16 AM (#5092 - in reply to #4957)
Subject: Re: ISO: Rockwell 4.33 differential gear set?


Veteran

10010025
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada
Choices, choices, choices! Man-O-man Billy, I feel for ya Buddy.

Let me help you out some here: Put all that stuff in a box and ship it up here :-p

Them 440' Ally adapter's are rare as hen's teeth.

My only issue with the Ally is the cost of a stand-alone controller (about the same Canadian dollars for the controller as I have into my engine & trans combined). Basically twice the price of the 47/48 series controllers I've found out there.

See: http://www.firepunk.com/anteater/ or http://e-transcontrol.com/e-transcontrol_2017_004.htm

Sadly, it appears there's not many to choose from for the 47/48 Chrysler transmissions.

Terry
#846
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fcrives3
Posted 2017-10-16 11:17 AM (#5095 - in reply to #4957)
Subject: Re: ISO: Rockwell 4.33 differential gear set?


Contributor

25
Location: Greensboro, NC
Anybody have the part # for the Allison adapters
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BigRabbitMan
Posted 2017-10-16 11:33 AM (#5096 - in reply to #5095)
Subject: Re: ISO: Rockwell 4.33 differential gear set?



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Location: Cottage Grove, OR
fcrives3 - 2017-10-16 9:17 AM Anybody have the part # for the Allison adapters


Not that simple. Requires multiple parts plus a different starter.
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