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Contributor
| The fuel sock may not be listed as a separate part in the manual because it is usually sold as an integral part of the sending unit. Similar to needing a float for the thermoquad carburetor, the float by itself will not be listed in the FMC manual. (You would refer to a thermoquad manual pertaining to year make engine displacement, etc.). Below is a link to a generic Mopar sending unit. The off-white "cylinder" at the end of the pick up tube is the mesh fuel filter sock. If you want to replace only the fuel sock you may possibly be able to go to a auto parts store with the old one to match one up. The fuel sock is hard to get off the tube, extreme care is needed in order to not damage the rheostat float level electrical sending mechanism. The problem is probably not the sock, but the rust scales/particles in the tank - the tank will need to be flushed, and/or sealed or replaced. If you have to go into the tank it would be wise to just change out the whole sending unit while it is out.
http://www.521restorations.com/images/KEV/bsend38bnr.jpg
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Elite Veteran
 
Location: Medford, OR | Ive talked to everyone and their brother here in the valley, and not one parts store has a 440 fuel pump!! I ordered one, be here in two days. Crazy |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | That is all very interesting TEX. There is a simple solution to every problem . . . and it is often wrong.
The FMC does NOT have a Chrysler fuel tank pickup/sender. As stated in the Parts Manual, it has a Snyder or VDO sender.
The FMC Parts Manual Illustrations are pretty damn good. No sock is shown . . . because there isn't one on a FMC.
Floats in the T-Quad carb are not shown either, as they are not a "service" item . . . but the Carb Assy Part Number is shown in the list so you can use other sources to find floats if you need them. That is pretty common "whole vehicle" Parts Books.
But . . . I happen to remember what I have seen right here on this website . . .
Fuel pickup/sender out of FMC #1027 - http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/photos/show-album.asp?albumid=77&ph...
Fuel pickup/sender out of FMC #477 - http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/photos/show-album.asp?albumid=14&ph...
There are lots of "socks" - https://www.google.com/search?q=Filter+socks+on+gas+tank+pickups+%3F...
I don't care for them, as they are hidden and difficult to determine if they are "clogged". I like in line fuel filters tho, as they can be cut apart to see if they were clogged, and if so, I use the drain plug on the gas tank (FMC has one, but many don't) to further "examine" what is in the tank, to determine what to do next about indicated "fuel contamination", or "plugged filter flow".
Oh well . . . DK still has a "unsolved" fuel/electrical/linkage problem.
Search ON, Lou #120
Edited by hemi354az 2016-08-07 1:17 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | DK, if you are changing the mechanical fuel pump . . . take a look - http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/photos/photo-thumbnails.asp?albumid...
Might save you some time and frustration getting the new one mounted.
Here is a Carter Part Number, M4589, NAPA #AFP6774, Airtex #6774, Delphi #MF01130, Spectra #SP1111MP or #SP1349MP, to give the Parts Counter Rocket Scientist to cross reference . . . or
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/crt-m4589?seid=srese1&cm_mmc=pla-...
Pump ON ! Lou #120
Edited by hemi354az 2016-08-07 1:16 PM
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Elite Veteran
Location: Medford, OR | Amazon had the Airtex pump. When I pulled #184's full sendor/pickup assembly out, looked the same as Lous pics. Tuesday night I will post my findings with the new pump.
Edited by dkarnath 2016-08-07 1:42 PM
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Contributor
| Wow, thanks for the pics hemi. This issue has been one of my fears for years - a rusty gas tank. I have serviced farm and industrial equipment that have had the same pick up tube design, a simple tube and float with no sock - they had fuel starvation issues related to rust scale clogging the pick up tube. After cleaning and/or changing the fuel tanks the problems were solved. This is just one possible issue that can be a cause. |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | Hey TEX, check you Mail on this Website. Sent you a brief message. Lou #120
Edited by hemi354az 2016-08-07 2:11 PM
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Contributor
| Lou's picture process on this is worth a thousand words. When servicing a 440 fuel pump and the pushrod had slid down, if grease doesn't hold it in long enough I have removed the pipe plug in order to insert a thin rod or something of the sort through the plug hole to push the rod back and hold it into its shaft while inserting the fuel pump arm in front of the rod in order to be sure it is installed properly. If the bolts start getting tight and there is still a significant gap between the pump mounting face and the block while bolting the fuel pump on - stop. The fuel pump arm is probably not in front of the rod but resting on top of it. Lou is right in that you have maybe only a few chances to get that plug out successfully - it has been in there for forty years. Make sure there is no debris in the plug head pocket and the tool to remove it is inserted all the way - preferably using a proper sized bit on an air impact wrench. (I have done it with a 90 degree wrench before but you have to exert lots of pressure inward and at the right angle of the plug - both consistently and that the force is at best precisely to the right angle of the plug. Otherwise you will wallow out the socket hole. (The only way to remove it at that point is to drill it and use an "easy out" to get the rest of it out, not fun).
[Just an FYI: on Chevrolet 350's of the same era there is a bolt on the front face of the block that you can remove. Push the pump rod in, then lightly tighten a longer bolt through the same hole of the bolt you took out on the front of the block - the longer bolt will "bottom out" on the side of the pump rod and hold it in for you. Once the pump is installed remove the long bolt and put the original short bolt back in]. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Medford, OR | So I picked up the new fuel pump today. It was nice to see that it has a 3/8 inlet, my old pump was 5/16. #850 has 3/8 from the tank to the inline fuel filter, 5/16 from the filter to the pump (about 2' worth), then 5/16 line to the TQ. The new pump is installed, but I had to go buy a 90% 3/8's fitting and some fuel line to complete the 3/8 line. It'll be fired up tomorrow. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Medford, OR |
Yesterday was the perfect 100 degree day to take it for a drive..... :-[ . Ran great from stop light to stop light, Ran great on the 40 mph four lane hwy hammering the throttle down, then it ran great on the 50 mph four lane hwy hammering the throttle down from time to time picking up speed. I'm now about 7-8 miles away from home where I decided to take Interstate I-5 back to the house. It ran like $hit as soon as I merged into traffic on the Interstate!!! Same scenario as described earlier in this thread (pulls hard until about 50 mph). It seems as though when the ambient or "under hood" temps get to a certain temp, It starts vapor locking...So I took it easy and drove it home, runs great at slow speeds! FMC's pack some serious heat in the engine compartment!! I couldn't even touch the rear bumper it was so hot! I opened the rear access hatch to the engine (barely) lol, and touched the fuel supply line before the pump, and it was smoking hot, even with the fuel tank in front of the engine behind the fire wall, the fuel supply line was hotter than hell, that doesn't help with vapor lock issues....So I'm going to check the supply line for any resistance (like the fuel tank pick up assembly), and if all is good there, I will order a Carter 4070 electric pump and install and then get rid of the mechanical pump....I'm trying to make it to Oakridge boys! I've already had TWO flat tires (sitting in the driveway) because of faulty Ebay inner tubes.....I have extra tubes/air to bring with me for the Oakridge trip....Still looking for that spare tire....lol |
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Veteran
Location: Soquel, CA. | I gotta say, even though these beasts do indeed run hot back there, and I have run mine through 100 degree deserts up grades, your description of just how hot yours is getting, particularly the fuel line, seems a tad extreme. I feel like there is something else going on here too. At the very least, not enough protection of the fuel line (and filter?) from the exhaust system, which is likely running directly below, right? I guess I am going to need to check for that on mine specifically, on the next drive. But, I often have to stick my head in there through the back to get to the transmission dipstick with the engine hot after driving and running. Yes, it is hot in there, but do-able. Sounds like yours is not so much, which gives me pause. |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | I kind of agree with Greg. What you are describing seems hotter than what my experience has been. Have you correctly oriented the fan with the concave side to the rear/radiator side? Is the fan 2/3 of the way inside of the fan shroud? |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Medford, OR | That's funny you mentioned checking the tranny fluid, because that was what I was doing when I first got back to the house and noticed the high heat (I just resealed the speedometer gear housing earlier in the day). My water temp never got higher than 195 on the gauge. (Smoking hot) may of not been the correct term for the fuel line.... It was hot though just like everything else. I should have pulled out the infrared gun.... |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Hey Dan I just got back from a short run to Vancouver and back on the weekend and also experienced what seems to be vapor-lock. Mine would start bogging shortly after starting off from a standstill; after about 50yds or less it would begin to stumble (missing?) for about another 100 yds or so then it would settle down and be good then on upwards. Only happening shortly after start off. The only day it was doing it was hotter than the rest (90 degrees or higher) and I couldn't get it to do it again later that same day with my brother-in-law (a mechanic) on board. So, I'm going to buy some insulated foil tape and wrap all visible fuel lines I can get at and hope that does the trick.
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Medford, OR | Ill check the fan Stephen, I'm pretty sure it's correct, but I will look when I get home. Our "Rogue Valley" gas isn't the greatest. We are at the end of the fuel delivery line, and when I take a rig out of town, I ALWAYS get better mileage running off other areas fuel...It takes a tank of fuel (basically) in out other motorhome to drive to WA state. When I come back home after filling in WA, I have just under a half tank?? Explain that? This has happened on many different trips with many different vehicles. There is actually people talking about it on the web...Anyway, back to fuel fun. |
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Veteran
Location: Oslo Norway | Have you checked the fuel pick up yet?
A damaged fuel pick up could give you some very strange and inconsistent symptoms from variables like fuel tank level, acceleration, deceleration, up & down hill and outside temperature.
Try to diagnose this problem without running your engine out of fuel more than necessary, the repeated "starving" could put a lot of unnecessary wear on the old thing.
Kjetil
#477
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Elite Veteran
Location: Medford, OR | I blew through the supply line last night Kjetil, no restrictions. For the last 2.5 years, I've only averaged 1/4-1/3 tank of fuel, I just filled it completely a month ago. I know the pickup is pulling fuel out of the tank just fine, I don't see the need to pull the assembly completely out at this point. I'm going to remove the TQ tonight and inspect. Hopefully I find a piece of garbage in it, or maybe the secondary's are sticking?? We'll see... |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Medford, OR | I pulled the TQ off last night, I found nothing unusual about it. It blew freely through the needle and seat, I was able to get a 1/4 turn on all the body screws though. So I'm glad I took another look at it after the rebuild. I posted pics in my album showing the supply fuel line and the "old" carter electric pump mount. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Medford, OR | Well.....I installed the electric pump and relocated the fuel supply lines further away from the exhaust. The pump puts out 6.5 pounds pressure. The spark plugs i looked at are showing lean burn vs rich. Took it for a drive and as soon as I hit the highway!!!! BAM still have the same issues! It actually runs worse with the new pump. I had to nurse her home around 25 mph's. I pulled the coil and it checks out good on the specs (I even compared it to three other coils at the part store), I also checked the resistance specs for the pick-up coil in the dizzy = good. So I am going to tear into the Thermoquad I guess... |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | Dang!! |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Medford, OR | Yeah it's been awhile since I have been this stumped on an engine, maybe I've been stubborn about my carb rebuild? Lol. That's where I'm goin next....time to clean the tools off the bench.
Edited by dkarnath 2016-09-10 10:09 PM
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Veteran
Location: Bethune, SC | I have a boxed, ready-to-ship rebuilt Thermoquad. It was built by a nationally known Thermoquad rebuilder in Atlanta for a 440 motor home engine. A friend suggested I use another carb I had on the shelf that would be much better so I installed it. This carb has been in a climate controlled environment for the last 8 years. It's yours, including shipping, for $175. The only warranty I will make is that you will get a rebuilt Thermoquad. The price is about half what I paid for the rebuild. I will ship the carb USPS Priority so you should have it by Wednesday or Thursday. Henry |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | What great guy Henry! You can sit by my campfire ANYTIME!
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Medford, OR | Thanks Henry! The rebuild kits are about 50 bucks themselves now. Let me sleep on it for a few days. I just got the bench cleaned up, going to pull the TQ maybe tonight...well maybe not, it's 10 o'clock now. |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Ignacio Colorado | The fact it is getting worse brings me back to the carter AVS I had acting the same way. The needle seats were backing out and effectively dropping the float level and causing fuel starvation.
Some TQ carbs have a screen filter inside the fitting the fuel line attaches to. Look at that fitting first.
The engine does recover if you get out of the throttle right? Runs ok then falls on it's face again when you get back into it? If so forget any electrical issues. Only chase one tail, the ghost tails you start chasing will branch out and lead you away from the real issue. If it quacks like a duck hunt duck.
Bill |
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To vapor lock, or not to, that is the question.
