Posted 2021-05-23 4:17 PM (#7722) Subject: New guy... #991
Hey all, new FMC owner and 1st post of (probably) many. This is a former PDX shuttle, true transit bus, still a 440 with Allison and disc brakes both ends. Been very nicely converted 15 y ago or so, interior is holding up nicely. Bad thing is, this thing has been sitting for 15 years, I know, not good but price was really right. Engine only has about 20K on a full rebuild (trans was replaced also) but currently has a leaky HG, one cyl is dead. Compression checked out (dry) 130-150 (and one zero), no water in oil, built oil good oil pressure from a bit of cranking. My plan is to deduce what I can from observing when heads are off and basically just have the heads serviced and put gaskets on it... then check compression after I drive it home (no hysterical laughing please) and it may need "freshened up" at least at that point. Brakes went to the floor after a (quite) hard push, so at least a master cylinder (on the way), front discs looked very nice, will check the brake lines VERY carefully. Really should just replace them before it get's moved. A truck shop should be able to custom make brake lines for me? Well, that's my intro... no need to "warn" me about what I'm getting into, I'm fully aware and no "noob". So, greetings, thanks to admin for approving my account and thanks for any thoughts on this new beast of mine.
Posted 2021-05-23 5:08 PM (#7723 - in reply to #7722) Subject: Re: New guy... #991
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada
Welcome to the group!
If the mileage on your coach is as it reads, it's likely among the - if not 'the' - lowest mileage shuttle/transit units out there.
Sounds like you're on the right course here, especially with the brakes.
There's other's here (and on the FMC facebook group) who know a crap-ton more than me who'll hopefully chime in.
On the brakes: IIRC the transits also used hydrovac boosters (one in the starboard side of the engine house, the other forward and under the co-pilots seat ahead of the wheel. If that's the case be sure and check the booster 'cans' for any brake fluid accumulation. Easily checked by undoing the big hoop-ring that holds the two can half's together. Any fluid in there indicates the cylinder needs rebuilding. Most just replace the whole unit. Read up (learn) about the two types of master cylinders and corresponding H-vacs that were used together. Important: don't mix them up.
If you don't have a parts/service manual, look here (http://www.fmcmotorcoach.com/) and read up on bleeding brakes and what parts go with what. If you don't find what you need to know, ask!
On your brake lines, have you considered buying a tube bender and a flaring-tool? They ain't that hard to do and you can save a shit-ton. I've been reading up on Nicopp brake lines but haven't made a decision yet. It's super easy to bend and don't rust out from the inside. More $$$ though.
Make sure the rubber you're rolling on is good, too.
Posted 2021-05-23 6:30 PM (#7724 - in reply to #7723) Subject: Re: New guy... #991
andy1canada thanks much for the reply. Below is what I was told by a mod/owner at FB site FMC motor coach owners, was the one I needed - https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/NMAM2134?fbclid=IwAR1dgwkA1C_At1xwMM... - I got what's supposed to be the Doorman version - https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001PYNV9M/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_ti... -. Hope it's correct but Fri will have the old part out so can compare and get the right one if necessary. Bit of confusion on the h-vac... I saw somewhere that at least some are supposed to have oil in them? Not sure I would be able to tell if they have bf in there or not if there's oil in there? Probably for the maiden voyage will do a rudimentary test and settle for a decent brake feel and deal more thoroughly when I get it where it's going (200 mi). Yeah already decided to make my own brake lines, really-really would rather wait till i get it moved but that would be dumb... I dunno I'll look at them but highly suspect they will not look good at all. Yes OD says 130K on it which is great, but that that coastal climate (Portland OR) has had some "effect" but that's the way it is will have to deal with it. Btw comes with brand new-in-the-box windshield !? and a complete set of extra wheels... hope the window seals are in there too eh. Anyway, gonna go slow and steady on it, really in no rush. Oh and yes, most definitely needs tires.
Posted 2021-05-23 9:53 PM (#7725 - in reply to #7722) Subject: Re: New guy... #991
Location: Cottage Grove, OR
<div><br /></div><p>Later I will email you the transit parts manual if you do not already have it. What manuals do you have?</p><p> Send me a text to 916-425-7996 so I can help you with your needs.</p><p> </p>
Posted 2021-05-24 7:44 AM (#7727 - in reply to #7724) Subject: Re: New guy... #991
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada
Forgot to ask your name and you forgot to introduce yourself? (Rastus... Rasty?)
At a glance (without confirming it) that MC appears the later coach unit (larger one) without the residual pressure valves in the output ports. If it is the larger version used in these coaches, you should be running the larger H-vacs with it also which don't have the residual pressure valves in the output port.
Also forgot to mention to take a good look at ALL of your flexible brake hoses to each wheel. I had one let go 5yrs back 20 mins after descending 'the Hill of Death' on the infamous Hwy 4 on the road to Tofino.
Posted 2021-05-24 2:59 PM (#7729 - in reply to #7728) Subject: Re: New guy... #991
andy1, tho it's really not my last name, great grandfather Englishified Schjelde/Schelde to Sheldon. But that's not really Danish either, so not sure where it comes from. Not exactly sure what you mean about the Large h-vacs... you mean that if they aren't large ones they should be changed over? Thanks
Service Manual: Group 9 Fig. 9-2 shows a pic of the early master cylinder with the two residual pressure check valves (RPC valves) at both the output ports. With the later larger master cyl. & H-vacs, these RPC valves are located at the output port brake-line attachment point on each H-vac. This is illustrated in the Parts Manual section/Group 9/Fig. 9-1 see 74A.
Measure around the can circumference (right next to the ring clamp that holds the two half's together) with a pc of string/wire etc (cloth tape measure) etc. and if it's about 36 - 36 1/4" then you've got the large H-vacs and should be running the larger master cylinder. The smaller master used on the early coaches had both ends of the reservoir 'rounded' in shape. I don't have the part numbers handy. Maybe someone can chime in here.
Also, remember you also have the option to upgrade to the larger system if you don't have it currently. Just remember: large master cylinder goes with large boosters/small master cylinders goes with smaller boosters.
Get to know the Manual(s) and you'll be better versed to deal with stuff as it happens... and it will happen.
We all owe Kejtil a debt of gratitude for getting this data on-line for us all.
Posted 2021-05-24 4:19 PM (#7731 - in reply to #7729) Subject: Re: master cylinder
Location: Cottage Grove, OR
RastusM - 2021-05-24 12:59 PM andy1, tho it's really not my last name, great grandfather Englishified Schjelde/Schelde to Sheldon. But that's not really Danish either, so not sure where it comes from. Not exactly sure what you mean about the Large h-vacs... you mean that if they aren't large ones they should be changed over? Thanks
There are two sizes of master brake cylinder and two sizes of boosters for the motor home chassis. They generally described as the Large system and small system. The components of one system should not be comingled with the components of the other system or bad things can happen. The following is how they were originally equipped by FMC.
Coaches 0-663 had the small system
Coaches 664-750 had the large system
Coaches 751-1012 had the small system
Coaches 1013-1050 had the large system
The original brake master cylinder for your coach was a Bendix 2228225 per the Motorhome and Transit parts manuals.
BUT now the question is "does your coach still have the originally sized system or has it been changed by a Prior Owner (PO)?"
The picture you posted on Facebook appears to be that of the Large master cylinder.
To determine if you have the large or small boosters measure the circumference of each of them. Elsewhere the circumference of each size is posted. I don't have that information at the moment. To get the coach home, i would not concern myself if there is any fluid in the booster body. They still work with fluid but it is something that you will need to address later.
The current, valid part number for both sizes of Master Cylinder are posted elsewhere on this site. But be sure to measure the boosters to determine what size they are then order the correct, matching MC.
Attempting to get the correct MC by taking the old one to a parts house has resulted in major problems in the past. The reason is that they might locate one that uses the same casting so looks the same, BUT the internals are different and they do not have the ability to see or check for that. Its the inside that counts and not the outside!!
Post the circumference of each of your boosters and then we can help you further. This is the first step!
Posted 2021-05-24 7:36 PM (#7732 - in reply to #7722) Subject: Re: New guy... #991
Ah-ha, plot thickens. I bought the wrong MC unless #991 was upgraded to large h-vac units. I was given the proper Napa part number to begin with, but there was someone in previous post here listing various x-over numbers but they were for the large version and um, I wasn't aware. Soo, thanks all for the guidance, I will see what I have for boosters on fri and will probably have to return it and get the right stuff. Good thing I was set straight because if it physically fit I would have blissfully installed it. I was at least aware of the service bulliten regarding the potentially dangerous situation involving the check valves and potential brake drag, skimmed it... will read it in full before doing anything. Thanks all, again.
Posted 2021-05-25 9:04 AM (#7739 - in reply to #7722) Subject: Re: New guy... #991
Location: Ignacio Colorado
Please, please please! Don’t send the new guy down the rabbit hole. Transit has the large master and large hydro vacs! Both h-vacs are under the front!
Sorry for the confusion! And for being late to the party.
Posted 2021-05-25 5:31 PM (#7743 - in reply to #7722) Subject: Re: New guy... #991
B. Sitton - 2021-05-25 9:04 AM Please, please please! Don’t send the new guy down the rabbit hole. Transit has the large master and large hydro vacs! Both h-vacs are under the front! Sorry for the confusion! And for being late to the party. Bill
Ok well first I've heard, thanks. I've got both MC's coming so surely one of them will be correct, knock on wood. I think, that 991 is actually a "shuttle" so not sure what it's going to have but will be obvious when I get my hands on it again. Man got a feeling my h-vacs are going to need attention, will it "stop" without them? My leg's aren't atrophied- yet :D No flames please, ok go ahead does a body good. Bill Sitton, thanks for the info.
Posted 2021-05-25 9:01 PM (#7747 - in reply to #7722) Subject: Re: New guy... #991
Btw 991 is the green one that Kheli Crissom posted fs in the FB group. Been absorbing the info on there but can't join yet as I changed the spelling of last name on a whim and they won't allow it for 60 days or something : /