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Elite Veteran
  
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Howdy,
Got an album started - sort of - on my Cummins swap. The picture uploader is giving me serious grief and I need to sort that out before I get any inclination to try to put more pics/video up. Will keep you posted on my progress figuring out what I did wrong, or, what's wrong with the upload system if possible.
Pulled the bumper a couple of days ago and man is that sucker heavy. Will be looking to shave off another 50 lbs or so off of it while still being able to safely tow up to 5000 lbs. I've still got another 240 lbs or so to lose off the ass-end of this coach in order to maintain some semblance of the OEM rear-wheel GVW.
http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/photos/photo-thumbnails.asp?albumid...
Siphoned out most of the gas out of the 'full' tank today and while doing so I reminded myself how brilliant of an idea it was to top-up the tank before I left Seattle. 
Looking forward to getting going on this...
Terry
#846 |
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Veteran
Location: Olympia, Washington | Siphoning it out beats running out any day. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Medford, OR | Cool! |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | I would have used the drain plug in the bottom of the gas tank. Never did like the taste of gasoline.
Drip ON ! Lou #120 |
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Veteran
Location: Olympia, Washington | Nothing beats a long afternoon of gasoline burps. I'm with you on the taste Lou but what about ethel and aviation fuel surely they must taste better. |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | The 115/145 AvGas plus Manganese plus Jack Daniels that we used in the Unlimited Race Planes and HydroPlane Boats is not too bad . . . but the JP-4 and now JP-8 makes a lousy Manhattan.
Chug-A-Lug ON ! Lou #120 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Medford, OR | This reminds me of my late Grandpa, he once told me, "I feel really good (he was in his mid/to late 70's) for having my hands in gasoline my entire life"....He was a great mechanic. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | You going to use sheets of plywood to build a work surface for moving the engine in and out? 4 or 5 of the cheapy moving blankets from Harbor Freight ($5-$6 each) come in handy as well, you'll get tired of that hard cold surface.. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Medford, OR | I use the Harbor Freight moving blankets all the time when laying or kneeling on the ground, they are great. The small black one they have is my favorite, I also have a larger blue one, buts it's kind of cumbersome to move around, but it would be good for this type of job because Terry's going to be snuggling and loving on the blanket under there for a while..... |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Hey,
Yeah Lou, was already feeling like a dick-head for 'topping up' the tank right before an engine swap and after I siphoned most of the gas out - didn't swallow a drip, sorry - I decided to crawl under the coach for a look at the bottom of the tank only to discover the drain plug; however, I do believe I took the better route to siphon the bulk of it out vs trying to figure out how to get several jugs under that sucker without losing a bunch of it. Good to know there's a drain there regardless as I will have to flush and clean the tank at some point before diesel goes in there.
Dan, buddy, sounds like you, too, were close to your Grandpa as I was, too, my own. We lost him in 82' to colon cancer; battled it for 2 yrs. Much of what I know about mechanical stuff - which, frankly, ain't much - I owe to him; like the time he and I did an engine overhaul on Granny's 1960 Envoy (like a Vauxhall) right in his carport. Seldom a day goes by that I don't think of him.
Yes on the plywood and no on the blankets; coverall's will suffice, thanks. Pussies!
Went out after work and measured up the bumper assembly - a very substantial assembly at that - then did a sq/ft weight calculation on the weight based on known sq/ft weights of 1/4" plate steel, 3/4" plate steel and the 5 or 6/32" stainless bumper itself, which I estimated at about 9 sq/ft. Wish I had a scale.
My rough calculation its total weight comes out at approx 135 lbs. Little wonder it nearly killed me carrying this sucker a few feet away from the coach.
I invite any and all rebuttals on this estimate as I really would like to nail this down for future reference.
Just go out and rip the bumper off the back of your coach and weigh it - take one for the team!
This said, it strikes me as an invitation to explore losing at least 50 lbs or more off this structure while still retaining a 5000 lb towing standard.
50-lbs or more off the aft-most-ass-end of this baby might not seem worthwhile, but would be pounds well lost I figure.
Back at it this weekend.
Cheers,
Terry
#846
Edited by andy1canada 2018-11-15 8:05 PM
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | Unless you are willing to build the structure in aluminum I don't think you'll be able to extract 50lbs...you might shave 25lbs by using 3" square tube (1/8" wall), you will have a fair amount of time in it to reproduce the shape and mounting/locating positions to match both the frame rails and bumper.. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Weighing in:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Klau-Mini-Weighing-Mini-Crane-Scale-OCS-L/4...
Small investment I figure to put the pounds where my 'mouth' is.
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | You mentioned looking for a simpler solution for rear air bags, you could replace the rear shocks with a heavy duty coil over shock or a bellows air lift shock like these https://www.airliftperformance.com/product/82607/ You would have to do some rework to the upper shock mount tower (but it needs it anyway, both of mine were cracked from poor installation welding). This would be a much lower fabrication investment (labor dollars) but a bit more on material cost. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Morning,
Am I correct in assuming that the shocks load-rating basically splits/shares the vehicles rear axle weight, ie 10,500 lbs., or, over 5000 lbs each?
If that's the case then these puppies would be sorely underrated at a max load rating of 1700/lbs or so. No?
Before I make any decisions about any rear or front suspension upgrades I need to do two things:
1) - finalize any weight reductions I can make back there to compensate for the heavier engine. My little crane-scale will surely come in handy here in arriving at a real net butt-weight when I'm done. Frankly, in the end I plan to be very close to OEM rear axle weight when I'm done.
2) - actually learn something about suspension geometry & engineering. I know dick, really. Lots of questions and stuff to learn here. For example, why did you (Len) decide not to use the simpler Timbren rubber springs vs the set up you used and what benefits have you realized in the end? (pun intended) Are the rubber spring set ups many have used meant moreso to alleviate trailing-arm lateral movement which causes 'tail-wagging' driving issues, vs any useful rear weight transfer or increased support function?
One thing I do know now is that the handling & driveability of #846 has to end up as good, or, better than it is now. I'd rate #846 a strong 6 or maybe 7 out of ten (10 being sportscar like handling) as it drives now. Not quite at the hand over the keys to one of my kids to 'take'r for a spin' stage yet but I will try to get there.
Thanks and have a great day!
Terry
#846
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | "Am I correct in assuming that the shocks load-rating basically splits/shares the vehicles rear axle weight, ie 10,500 lbs., or, over 5000 lbs each?"
No...unless you plan on removing the entire torsion suspension and relying only on the shocks.
All/any of these (air bag, air shock, timbren, sumo spring, coilover shock, etc...) solutions would be "suspension assist"...my current air bags are the heavy duty style and are only rated at 2500lbs each...the existing/factory shocks don't provide any "suspension" at all...they provide dampening.
Edited by LCAC_Man 2018-11-19 10:16 AM
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | While I know a lot of you guys love to talk about the benefits of "Timbrens"...I already had them on my coach when I bought it...maybe they made some improvement over stock...but it was still like driving a wet sponge. The truth is they are glorified long travel bumpstops that really just hide the fact that your rear suspension is worn/too soft to do the job. Sumo Springs are another version of Timbrens...again...if you need just a little bit of extra sway control they probably would do the trick...if you need to (substantially) restore/increase suspension capacity they are not up to the job.
Why did I do the long trailing arm air bag install...? To provide additional suspension support farther back on the frame rails where it is badly needed with the extra weight and to accomodate the type of towing I do.
Edited by LCAC_Man 2018-11-19 10:28 AM
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Veteran
Location: Houston, Texas | Our main purpose or need for installing the rear airbags, will be to raise the rear a
few inches without lifting the front end as well while trying to adjust the rear suspension
up, right now if I adjust it, the front goes up at the same time just as much as the rear.
Ours has always been great going down the road before and after our diesel conversion,
now we will have to install a GPS Cruise Control to keep it from blowing & peeling the
stripes off.
Rico & Carmen
397
12 V Cummins & 6 Speed Ally. |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | Here is a description of the air bag setup for coach 809. Moving the support point rearward effectively shifts weight from the rear wheels to the front wheels as the pivot point for the coach body is shifted rearward. The coach pivot point remains the same. This aligns with the effect that Frank B. observed when he put airbags on his coach. The front of the coach lowered down.
"Also, another major difference in 809 is it has an airbag rear suspension, which I engineered. I have my rear torsion bar adjusters backed out all the way, no timbrens, just a 1 1/2" suspension bumper which the suspension arm sets right down on when there is no air in the suspension. My air bags are mounted 12" behind the wheel centerline. I run 40 lbs of air in the bags and the coach sits at the recommended height in the manual. The rear rides on air bags and not torsion bars...so the coach chassis is being held up behind the rear wheel centerline. My rear shocks are mounted just in front of the bags still behind the axle, which gives them more travel than the stock location, which was a bad design in my opinion." - Steve Centracchio. |
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Veteran
Location: Houston, Texas | Hey Mr Stephan, was wondering if you knew Steve and if he had a Diesel engine
and what type of Air Bags he used ????
Thank you
Rico & Carmen
397
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | ricogomez - 2018-11-21 12:37 PM Hey Mr Stephan, was wondering if you knew Steve and if he had a Diesel engine and what type of Air Bags he used ???? Thank you Rico & Carmen 397
He has a Cummins engine in his coach. I will email his contact information so that you can reach him with your questions. He is in Tucson, AZ. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Would be good to see pics of his install and find out what air bag kits he used.
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | "Moving the support point rearward effectively shifts weight from the rear wheels to the front wheels as the pivot point for the coach body is shifted rearward."
Pretty standard geometry/physics; basically the farther back you can carry/spread the load the better... Long levers work good...short levers will work you good.. |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | andy1canada - 2018-11-21 4:55 PM Would be good to see pics of his install and find out what air bag kits he used. Terry #846
I will send his contact info to you. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Thanks Stephen but I have it already. I'll give him a ding.
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Too busy lately but found a little time this morning to finally get the rear upper and lower rad grill sections off. I sure hope these two pieces are the only ones I need to take off to get this engine swap done. I'm going to try to simplify how these things go back on. Maybe join the upper and lower sections into one piece that easily slips into two slots/pockets at the bottom with only two simple screws/bolts at the top. Have to think about it...
Couple more pics in the album.
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | Going to make it tough for motor mount work only having direct access from the rear; they don't take much time to remove and the extra light and improved access sure were worth the time for me. |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Ignacio Colorado | Yes you will be better off pulling the corners and drivers side grill. Also the drivers lower fiberglass corner. I went through extra work to avoid pulling the fiberglass corner but much easier to remove it. And I wasn’t changing the engine. Just the multiple in and outs to get the overdrive situated.
Bill |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Sage advice I guess. Will take another look at it.
Am looking forward to douching that engine compartment of all the oil, grease, grime and extraneous wiring, fixtures & plumbing.
My new 600 + lbs weigh scale should be here at the end of the month so I'm also looking forward to documenting & cataloging the various weights of all the crap I pull off of it vs what goes back on it if it's replaced by something else, like the radiator assembly for example: I figure that entire (dry) assembly has to be packing about 100/lbs or more. So... I'm looking at a rad assembly - complete with mounts and overflow jug - from a late model Mini Cooper (the high-performance version of course) that should better cut that weight by about 2/3 'rds!
This, along with my new rear-suspension helium-filled airbag system, otta' get me right about where I want to be on that back axle :-0
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | Did you weigh your coach before you started to get a baseline? |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Yeah I did. Just need to relocate the numbers I wrote down. Got some more done today. Gotta' say the way they attached them alum engine house panels is sure hoaky! Had to zip-disk two or three bolts to get'em off.
Figure I'll leave the two bottom fairing panels on for now. With the 3' x 4' opening I should have lots of room to mess around in there.
Nother pic in the album: http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/photos/photo-thumbnails.asp?albumid...
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | For the first couple you do have to be a bit of a contortionist to get to them but as they come off the improved access helps you get to the rest...buy a couple cans of PB Blaster and take 30mins to soak down every bolt head you see. And yes...the more you peel layers back the more you'll see the hidden "compromises" they made during production..
I agree with Bill, I think that getting that drivers lower fiberglass corner off both for the access and to keep from damaging it will be worth your while, they are just on with some 1/8" aluminum pop rivets...drive the stem out and the heads drill right off with a 3/16" drill bit (just don't go past the head).
Edited by LCAC_Man 2018-11-25 8:37 AM
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Ignacio Colorado | Yep I’ll say it one more time. The drivers lower corner needs to come off. I fought around it but caved and things were much easier after removal. I had to remove the drivers grill door and the forward piece it is hinged to to gain access to one rivet.
As a carpenter you don’t have the standing on your head reaching around behind you in the dark to hold a wrench with one hand while wrenching in the next compartment to get a bolt out. One trick, if you can’t see it close your eyes. Takes practice!
Bill |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | Yes, don’t be bashful! Take it all off as, based on experience, you will need to come at things from all directions. That includes while sliding under it on your back. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | I have to go under it?
Terry
#846 |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | andy1canada - 2018-11-25 12:16 PM I have to go under it? Terry #846
You will!! Many times!! To prepare for the underside working, you need something slick to protect you from the gravel parking surface and to allow you to easily maneuver once under the coach. A large piece of card board will work, but if not available, then get a 4x8 piece of thin laminated wall covering. It will protect you from the gravel, make it easier to find the nut, screw, washer that you dropped and allow for sliding around to position yourself under the coach. While under there, be sure to inspect your axel U joints while they have no load. I replaced all of mine after the inspection!! They will now be subject to a higher torque force than before. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | Speaking of surface, what do you plan to use to move the engines in and out from the bay? You'll likely need to do it a couple times when setting motor mounts.. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Yes, U-joints, spindles, wheel bearings are all going to get some love. Then the front end.
I'm adding an exhaust brake so I can dramatically reduce the wear & tear on the service brakes as well as bring the whole works to heel on some of the sick grades around here. Seriously, it gets the pulse going when you realize how hot them drums can get at times.
The coach is getting put up on what's basically packed road-base. So, I've got a few sheets of 3/4 plywood to roll the engine hoist on. Be a bit cumbersome still but I think its doable.
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | What exhaust brake do you plan to use...I've been doing some looking at them as well..
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Ignacio Colorado | I put a PAC Brake on my 94 cummins. Easy install. Remove a cast iron elbow that attached to turbo and header pipe. Replace with the brake housing. No cutting or welding going into the Dodge truck. You do need to change the exhaust valve springs on the Cummins 12 valve.
Bill |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Likely this one but haven't nailed it down yet: https://pacbrake.com/product/c44061-prxb-exhaust-brake-kit/
Apparently you also need this, too: https://www.xtremediesel.com/pacbrake-c11400-4-mounting-group
When I get around to a 'test fit' of the engine and trans wiggled in there, I'll better be able to envision if the straight version, or, the 90-degree unit will work best. Sort'a depends where the exhaust exits the coach, too. Maybe stacks ;-0
Got me an engine leveler for my crane hoist today.
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Hey Lenny: https://westslope.craigslist.org/pts/d/pacbrake-exhaust-brake/674055...
Not sure if it's a 3" or 4" kit but if it all works and is all there, you're saving a G-note if ya figure out how to work a secure deal on Cr. List.
Saw this a couple of weeks back and when you said you were looking at them, the light went on.
typed in: pacbrake site:craigslist.org/pts/ ...and wham-O, first one on the list. It's an omen buddy, get that wallet out!
Good luck!
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Sorry I forgot to also tell you that I called the Pacbrake head office just across the pond from me and they suggested I deal with Thoroughbred Diesel of all places. Claimed they had good prices.
For what its worth.
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | I've already got an air system so I won't need a compressor or tank. I probably will just wire up a solenoid valve to a spare switch I've already got for this and skip the controller altogether...I think all it does in the duramax is make sure you're not on the throttle and have tow/haul engaged...I think I can be trusted to do that on my own..
probably buy a stand alone and build my own stuff to support; something like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-GENUINE-OEM-Ford-E9HZ-2W068-B-7-8L-Dies...
That particular Duramax Pacbrake is for an LMM Duramax which is the next newer version than mine (when DPF came in ) and runs on GMLOWSPEED data vice the Class2 data bus that mine does so that controller wouldn't work with my ECM/Tune.
Edited by LCAC_Man 2018-11-28 6:18 PM
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Knowing what you're capable of, I should'a figured you could go the 'fab-something' route.
The epay piece don't say what diameter of exhaust it is for? What's yours?
Also, what provision do you have to control lock-up as you gear-down?
I forgot you already got a compressor on board... in case you have to frame a house or something while you're out & about :-o
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | probably wouldn't buy that particular one(seen standalones for a good bit less) ...but something like that...I still would need to look at a pressure relief/blow-off scheme if I went stand alone or some other means of protection maybe a pressure switch that would shut the solenoid off or something like that..
Edited by LCAC_Man 2018-11-28 6:51 PM
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Ignacio Colorado | The kit I have is more like the C44073.
https://pacbrake.com/product/c44073-prxb-exhaust-brake-kit/
Attaches to the turbo instead of in the pipe. Interesting that these are all compressed air operated, mine is vacuum actuated. Flip a switch and it is activated at closed throttle.
Bill |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Made in Canada - eh!
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | found one...spec'd for an International DT466 but I'll make it work, it has the same 3.5" exhaust diameter that I do.
I won't get to this until spring time.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/382569995959
probably should have spun this off into and "Engine Brake" topic rather than high-jacking Terry's build thread.
Edited by LCAC_Man 2018-12-05 5:34 PM
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | No worries Len.
Do you have lock-up control in your lower gears? Need that with these things. I imagine you do as even the 'ghetto' 47RE is able to be easily modified to be able to lock-up the lower gears when you need to.
Good score though. Is it the PXRB model or whatever they call it?
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | Tow/Haul mode will do lower gear lock up on the allison, can't imagine needing this if I'm not in that mode. This one is pre-PXRB, it's just an old school air cylinder controlled valve. For the money I can afford to make some changes/additions.
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | How about an update...surely you've wired brushed a few bolts in the past 20days! |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Hey,
Too busy. I know it sucks but that's the way it is. Construction is stupid busy up here these days.
Been doing quite a bit of framing lately and - besides killing me at my age - it gets me home late and tired.
Tied up all last weekend, too, up in Tofino visiting family. Great time; went easy on the booze for a change :-)
Should get to some stuff this weekend. Got my crane scale and am going to take the rear bumper apart after I weigh it to see what each piece actually weighs (the stainless vs the monster steel plate behemoth backing it up). I'm hopeful there'll be an opportunity to shave 50 lbs or more off the entire structure. Some of the class-3 (5000/lb) hitches I've been looking at are in the 40 lb range without the ball/mount.
50 lbs may not seem like much but when you consider where it's coming off of, its' huge. Now that I have a reasonably accurate scale that can weigh up to 660 lbs, I hope to make a useful record of areas where significant weight can be shaved off these coaches posterior.
Mark my words: the extra 400 lbs the 12-valve brings to the table - is going to disappear at a modest expense!
Terry
#846
Edited by andy1canada 2018-12-13 7:46 PM
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Hey,
Finally got around to weighing the bumper assembly on #846: the SS bumper with the 1/4" plate backing assembly and tow-ball mount weighs in at - 154 lbs. Wow!
Mine is the heavy reinforced type for towing. I'll post a pic of it tomorrow along with the individual weights of the stainless part & plate steel part once I separate them. I've estimated the SS bumper portion (@ approx 9 sq/ft) to weigh about 80 lbs or less (3/16" SS plate = 8.5 lbs per sq/ft). We'll see.
My vote is that this is serious overkill on rear structure weight. I will look to halving-it while maintaining a 3500 - 5000/lb towing standard; however, if I allow a generous 40 to 50 lb allowance for a decent Class III hitch assembly to replace the 1/4" plate Goliath, it's looking less likely that I will realize a substantial/useful reduction for the time & money spent.
Hopefully my new crane-scale will tell me the stock (dry) FMC radiator & support assembly will weigh in at 500 lbs or so and shed new light on Terry's whack-O weight-reduction program fiasco! ;-0
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | The stock radiator/mounting is heavy, but I picked it up and loaded it in my Grand Cherokee to take to the shop for reconditioning on my own...I eat my Wheaties but I'd have left my spine in the driveway if it were more than 200lbs.. |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | I initially installed an aluminum Ford radiator for a 550 powerstroke. I then replaced that with the stock radiator. Also upgraded the fan at that point. Couldn’t tell any difference in handling. |
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Veteran
Location: Olympia, Washington | Stephen:
What up-grades if any have you done to 1046's rear suspension? |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | None to this point. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | Did you ever mount those steel weight plates you got from me?
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | LCAC_Man - 2018-12-17 8:51 AM Did you ever mount those steel weight plates you got from me?
Yes, they are behind the front bumper. At this point I have traveled 48,000 miles with my coach since I completed the engine/transmission change. Most of it has been in the 60-65 mph range, but last summer I have cruised at 75 mph in states where allowed and did cruise across ID on I-84 at the legal speed of 80 mph as was wanting to get to a certain place that day.
As I have discussed with Terry, only consider an engine change if you are going to drive it significant miles. I have done so and I believe Terry will as well.
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Few more pics up as I played with the bumper a bit today. Home nursing a sore ankle for the last couple of days so... why not mess around with a 154-lb bumper?
http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/photos/photo-thumbnails.asp?albumid...
Got the assembly apart finally. Was hoping the iron section would better 100 lbs of the 154 lb total weight of the structure; but it didn't.
The iron part came in at 93 lbs. according to my cool little crane-scale.
https://www.amazon.ca/Klau-Industrial-Digital-Hanging-Factory/dp/B01...
After some deliberation I've decided that I'll nix the 5000 lb towing capacity in favor of the 3500 lb setup. It'll suffice for all I'd be needing to tow - including a toad.
If I can replace that iron section with a 3500/lb towing hitch that comes in at close to 50 lbs less than the current weight, I'll probably bite and do it. I've seen production 3500 lb hitch kits in the 40 lb range without the ball & mount.
Losing 50 lbs or so - at the rearmost extreme of the coach - is significant I think.
Courting the 'butt-sag' remedy...
Terry
#846
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Just saw this as an example of what can be welded up to handle 3500 lbs.
https://www.curtmfg.com/part/13536
This little sucker only weighs in at 25 lbs without the ball & mount.
Me thinks knocking off 50 lbs from #846's extreme arse-end is looking more doable.
Terry
#846
Edited by andy1canada 2018-12-19 7:45 PM
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | Quite a bit of fabrication required to adapt it to the frame end connections and then how the bumper will be attached will be another bit of work. You'll have a bunch of hours in it.. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | I'm asking what structural component the SS section brings to the equation?
It appears FMC dismissed that contribution, then way overbuilt the iron frame section. I'd bet that plate steel section would suffice to tow 15 - 20/K with a 1000 lb hitch weight; indeed, a job the FMC was never designed, or, intended to do.
I will look to use whatever structural integrity the SS section brings to the table to perhaps lessen the amount of iron needed to fashion a much lighter, DOT certifiable, 3500 lb towing set up with a 2" receiver.
I'm fortunate that I have a good career welder guy to advise me on this that has built countless trailers.
Also considering pulling a 'Chip Foose' and sucking that rear bumper inward a couple of inches or so closer to the coach. Some of you may have noticed that there's actually already a matching molded profile indented in the fiberglass at each rear corner of the coach that nearly matches the bumper footprint. Seems a natural cosmetic improvement to me.
The ladder would also have to moved forward to keep it plumb.
Terry
#846
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | Are you still going to put a Cummins Diesel and Allison Tranny in it ?
Lou #120 |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | I don’t think the SS bumper brings as much stiffening as you think. The end of mine bent rather easily! You are thinking that all of that steel is for a hitch. As Len mentioned earlier, it is my feeling that it is also there to stiffen up and tie together the ends of the frame members. By anchoring the ends of the frame members, that helps stop frame flex due to torque loads. And you will be increasing the torque loads.
I would put the dollars you will be investing into the hitch into putting air bags on the coach while the engine is out. Much more benefit for the dollars and hours. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | 96' 12-valve/47RE (stubby version).
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | You might be able to get away with the much lighter duty structure in the bumper/hitch area if you make up for it in the engine crossmember structure...but...that means all new structure there..
I'm with Stephen, that bumper is decorative and requires as much to hold it up as it provides in strength...it's a net-zero in my book..
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | I was referring to the area between the frame rails its attached to; not what's unsupported outboard - flying in the breeze.
By 'net-zero' do you mean that if that bumper was laying across two saw horses supporting it at the same positions that the frame rails do, that you could place 'zero' weight on it, expecting it to support it? I'd hazard it'd support a few hundred pounds before folding up. Now, a sudden impact of 'X' pounds changes everything. I get that part.
I'm implying that the way the 3/16" stainless bumper is rolled and creased adds great strength to it. That's simple sheet metal physics. No?
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | The form adds considerable rigidity (compared to flat plate of the same dimensions) which is great for holding it's own form but it shouldn't be mistaken for "strength"...in the end it's just a piece of chrome plated 1/8" thick stainless (plating gives a small amount of extra thickness but it's certainly not 3/16" . My point about "net-zero" is the amount of force required to deflect one of the frame rail ends(with nothing attaching them) would be, lets say 400lbs, the force required with just the bumper attaching them would (IMHO) be no more than the weight of the bumper itself added to that 400lbs which means the frame rail is task with holding up the weight of the bumper but only gains that amount in strength...net-zero. The forming of the bumper isn't such as it resist much of any twisting force and it flexes in those planes very easily..
I think you are focused on it just being a hitch structure, I can tell you for sure that the frame rails without it (or with something less) are going to flex even more than they do now. You could reproduce a similar (to the original) in 3/8" aluminum (if your friend has an AC tig machine) and get both the strength and the weight reduction...but that would come at a cost. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | You're right again Len: I just measured the bumper in 4 places (with a vernier) and averaged it to approx .185 thou. So, I'm 2-thou under 3/16".
I guess I'm keeping my eye's open for a good deal on aluminum then... :-0
Terry
#846 |
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Veteran
Location: Houston, Texas | When we first crank our Cummins we didn't have the brace
that runs across the bottom and bolts the two engine mounting plates
on the frame, therefore the driver mounting plate side was shaking
like a chicken at KFC, that's how we find out how much the brace was
needed, we had no idea.....(shade tree mechanic)
Rico & carmen
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | The stiffness of a welded/bolted box frame structure never increases if part of it is removed . . . (palm tree mechanic).
Lou #120 |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | ricogomez - 2018-12-20 10:08 AM ….. therefore the driver mounting plate side was shaking like a chicken at KFC, that's how we find out how much the brace was needed, we had no idea.....(shade tree mechanic) Rico & carmen 397
Rico, I love the description! But it does point out the importance of the connectors (ALL of them) between the two rails that support the engine. There is dead weight and then dynamic forces.
You have a lot of bigger fish to fry than the bumper when it comes to putting the Cummins into the coach. I would forget about the bumper and focus on getting the engine and tranny into the coach. One inch forward or rearward will make more difference than the bumper will. If you still want to fool with the bumper, do it during reassembly after all else is done. It is the LAST piece of the puzzle, not the first piece.
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Ha-ha! Too funny, Rico! Glad you got it done regardless.
Maybe in another five or six years - when I finally get this motor swap done - we can meet at a rally in Boot-Fook, Idaho and have a coupla' Corona's while we talk about all the things we could'a & should'a done.
Till then, I'll keep picking away at it.
Terry
#846
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | Because I was curious I went out with a caliper and checked my bumper,it was a little thicker than I thought, it is actually 5/32" (.160" thick) may have been some differences in year models/bumper vendors. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Perhaps there was some variation but I should concede that my measurements were all at the perimeter and there could have been some burrs that compromised the thickness. A micrometer would tell the tale accurately.
While I have you on the phone, Len, allow me to focus for a second on what you said previously about the bumper being 1/8" thick "plated" stainless.
Are you sure these things are plated? By 'plating' do you mean chromed? Mine appears raw stainless plate with no plating; perhaps polished/buffed some to get that finish.
I do know that these suckers are hard and likely pretty high on the Rockwell scale. I fried several (cheap) titanium drill bits trying to drill a couple of 3/8" holes in it.
Terry
#846 |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | Right there in the FMC Parts Manual. Stainless bumpers available from #440 up. Sparkle on and on and on ! Lou #120 |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Ignacio Colorado | The stainless bumpers are a brushed finish, not chrome. Chrome are chromed steel.
I’d be looking to add structure instead of loosing it for weight loss. Adding what you are with the Cummins.
Bill |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | Mine are definitely plated, maybe something a previous owner did. I'll have to actually confirm whether or not they are stainless (was an assumption on my part). They may in fact just be chrome plated steel.
Edited by LCAC_Man 2018-12-21 8:25 AM
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | I assume if you buffed/polished the crap out of it that it'd shine like chrome, same as aluminum.
Prolly some compound you could get for a wheel like what they do polishing Airstreams & airplanes.
Terry
#846 |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | I cannot let this shiny stainless opportunity pass . . .
Terry's #6148 comment above earns SPECIAL RECOGNITION among the FMC Turd Polishers Club whose motto is: The harder you rub . . . the Duller IT Gets. Well said Terry !
Lou #120 |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | Reply to Message #6147
FMC 2900R Parts Manual
Section 1 - Frame Assembly
Front Bumper
(Chrome or Silver Finish - Coach #0001 thru #00440)
(Stainless Steel or Chrome Finish - Coach #00441 and up)
Rear Bumper
(Chrome or Silver Finish - Coach #0001 thru #00440)
(Stainless Steel or Chrome Finish - Coach #00441 and up)
Key Word - OR.
Pretty self explanatory . . . at least to me.
BUMP ON ! Lou #120
Edited by hemi354az 2018-12-21 12:16 PM
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Took off the left side lower skirt and pulled the rad last night.
http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/photos/photo-thumbnails.asp?msg=upd...
Gave me a better perspective on the substance of the aft engine-mount cross member support. Hard to figure you'd need, BOTH, that huge cross member AND an additional 90-pound iron bumper-behemoth cross member to stiffen up that engine bed framework assembly sufficiently. (?) Still strikes me as overkill.
Weighed the rad and all support & shroud structure:
Rad (drained) = 95 lbs.
Complete support assembly = 35 lbs.
Total = 130 lbs.
This is a lot heavier than anticipated and that, along with it's age, will preclude me reusing it.
I will find an aluminum unit with the comparable 30" x 30" x 2 3/4" core size and look to lose another 50 - 70 lbs off the ass-end of #846.
Have a Great Holiday Season All!
Terry & Family and Solo (our canine child... with a few issues).
#846
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | if you can find one of these for a decent price you could make it work:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Radiator-FOR-2010-2011-2012-2018-Freigh... ssAAOSwp7Rb8xYa:rk:43:pf:0
I played with the idea of using one when I did mine, in the end the original just worked too well to make the change.
It would be a lot lighter...but not as light as your wallet..
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Howdy,
Sold the 440' & two 727's today. Guess I gotta' pull it for sure now. Buyer (nice guy and serious Mopar nut) even offered to help pull it. Stoked!
BTW: this fellow - who's built many 440's in his life - swears up and down that a fully dressed 440' (w/fluids) weighs in at - 850 lbs.
That's at least 100 lbs heavier than I'd been led to believe.
Makes my weight-loss program more doable :-0
Happy New Year to all!
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | A 100lbs more than a cast iron street hemi or truck V10? okay...maybe with the 727 still attached.
How about you post up what your "before" rear axle weight was and then when you're done post up your "after".
http://www.hughesengines.com/TechArticles/5engineweights.php
Edited by LCAC_Man 2019-01-03 7:53 AM
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | It's what he said; claims he's weighed it fully dressed. Swore up and down. Then sideways.
I'll double check to see if he meant with the tranny... and him sitting on top of the engine. He's a big guy so who knows.
Found the GVW info I had from previously in an email folder.
Says with the fuel and water tanks half-full it weighed 14,500/lbs with the Yammy genset replacing the Onan. I know the Yammy is 160 lbs lighter.
Problem is, when I went on the scale, I don't remember if I had the wife, dog, and my four cousins from Kamloops on board with me :-0
Going to have to keep weighing stuff as it goes on and off the coach. Will have to drive 20 miles or more to the scale to weigh the 440' when it comes out. Aggg-hhhh!
Terry
#846
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | 14500(14472 actually) is what mine was (weight certificate in the mass of documents I got with it) so that must be pretty common to stock rigs. I'm at 15,200 now. I made a concentrated effort to strip out anything I wasn't going to use rather than leave it in place. |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Ignacio Colorado | On the way home from the first mega rally in Minden Nebraska I ran #902 across the scales, 15,200 lbs. Wife kids and all our gear.
Thats a pretty much bone stock coach. 8 track included.
Bill. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | Yeah, mine was with no passengers, limited "stuff and gear" I didn't think to bring the 8-track :D
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | What's an '8-track'?
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Medford, OR | I've got an '8-track' in #850, the really funny part about is, that it doesn't even work. The radio works good, but the player needs a new wheel or something put in. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | I remember my first 8-track I got for my 72' Datsun pickup I bought in 75' (with some help from my Pa); it was the latest Craig 'Powerplay' that featured an unprecedented "5-watts" of Herculean audio-bliss. To that point the Who never sounded better. IIRC I think it had separate bass and treble controls - WOW!
Time flies...
Terry
#846 (four before Dan's!) |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Ignacio Colorado | My first 8-track was also a Craig powerplay, 1976. The original unit in #902 works great. In Chama, Boo (our little dog) and I played a CW McCall tape loud enough to offset the fireworks. Wolf creek pass, silverton train, Black bear pass, he loved Colorado.
Bill |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Howdy,
Got my tarp-shed raised up another 6 inches today to make more room to put up the coach. 12 poles shimmed-up with 4 pcs each of 2-by's. What a PITA!
Got the coach raised about 6 or 8 inches then it got dark so I quit. Will finish that tomorrow and prepare the mill & tranny to be pulled.
Oh, before I forget: FMC RV-TV is alive! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSdGaP-u8us
Forgive the spontaneity because that's exactly what it is - shoot from the hip with no rehearsal.
I'll be posting more and hopefully the quality will get better as I am completely new at this. I'm hoping that all owners will be able to use this channel as they please to add their stuff, too.
I did this with my crappy old (7 yrs) Samsung android so cut me a little slack on the quality :-o
Cheers,
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | I bought a box of microwave popcorn...I'm ready to be entertained.
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Made good on some time with my extra day off today and got the coach up and (laser) level. Four six-ton stands at each corner with the diff blocked up with wood-blocking for a back-up. Back-ups are good.
If the four corner jacking-points are sufficient references for leveling the coach on stands, I got the left to right (fore & aft) to within 1/8" inch of each side and front to back with the front of the coach just 1/4" higher than the rear. I'll live with that for now as it's set up on packed road-base, so it could move some over time.
The lower edge of the rear upper fiberglass panel (where tail lights reside) is about 59" above ground. This appears the lowest spot I have to clear to get the engine out. I measured the (approx) height of my pickers top beam and it should just weasel-in level above the engine once the air-box is off the carb. Fingers crossed.
Won't get to the rest of the goodies to be undone before next Sat. Will try to post more pics if we pull it on Sunday as planned. The fellow that bought the engine and tranny's offered to help me pull it. Unlike me, he actually knows what he's doing so I'm going to take him up on his offer.
More later.
Terry
#846
Edited by andy1canada 2019-01-07 7:36 PM
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Howdy,
Finally got the 440' & trans out of her today.
http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/photos/show-album.asp?albumid=191&p...
Thanks to Paul, the buyer, and his son for the timely help. These two moved like seasoned pro's and it was all over but the crying in less than 1.5 hrs.
All I had to do, for the most part, after they showed up was sawzall the exhaust out of her then unbolt the carb, two cross members and the u-joint. Paul suggested we leave the trans x-member and slide the works out over it - NOT! Nearly reshaped the bedroom floor on the first attempt.
Was hoping to do another short video but too rushed and too tired so just took a pic when it was gone. Kicked myself afterwards for not getting a pic of the whole works hanging on the crane when it was out.
FWIW: my fancy new load-leveler never came into play. Billy was right again, as usual. There's simply not enough room above the engine to make use of it. My HD cherry-picker's chain-hook also had to be shortened down to just two links from six. Thankfully the boys brought a carb lifting-plate that worked like a charm; moreover, with the trans attached to the engine it proved to be the nearly perfect balance point for the mass.
Before they showed up I set up sheets of plywood on the ground earlier today then positioned the picker to see if I'd jacked her up high enough... nope!
Had to raise the ass-end up another 6" or so for it to clear. That put the lower fiberglass bottom edge (the lowest point the picker has to clear) at 64" inches above the top of the plywood.
She's sitting at a rather precarious angle right now. Me thinks I'll have to raise the front end to level the coach again so I can do the fitment and engine mount work for the Cummins. That'll put all four wheels 12" or more off the ground.
Enjoying a couple of well-earned brewski's tonight.
More later.
Cheers,
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | 12" would be perfect, I had mine at 10" and had to get creative with the hoist attachment. It's nice to have that extra on the underside as well for all the wiring rework, airbag install and fab on the trans crossmember. |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | Yes, you will spend a lot of time under there! |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Howdy,
Well I spoke to the fellow today that bought the 440' & trans out of my coach; he's mostly got it ready to run already and shared with me what he discovered during the partial tear-down.
Before I say dick, I need to say that I always thought #846 was running pretty good and had pretty fair power output during the paltry 5000 or so miles I've put on it since I've owned her; moreover, considering the job this old rat-motor was tasked with, I thought it was getting comparable fuel economy to what I'd calculated on the trip home in #509 when I brought her up here from Santa Cruz a few yrs back (ie. 6 - 7 US mpg, or, 8 - 9 Imp. mpg).
Today I learned that I really don't know much about the venerable ole' 440' Chrysler.
The buyer, Paul, is reasonably confident that this was the original engine in #846. He told me that this engine, in the condition it was in when he got it home, was down 100 to 150 HP over what it should have been making.
This really blew my mind! (what's left of it after the 60's & 70's)
Here's Paul's autopsy results:
- camshaft lobes on a few cylinders severely worn down about 1/8".
- TQ carb over-fueling so badly that there was nearly '0' ignition spark and causing a huge carbon build up.
- timing chain worn out & very loose.
- engine did not have the big-rods but did sport a steel-crank.
- cylinder walls and rings (after 85,000 miles) were still in serviceable condition.
Epilogue: Terry has yet to realize what the true potential of the 440' is in the FMC application.
Almost regretting pulling it for the Cummins swap vs rebuilding it.
Almost...
Terry
#846
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA |
Flat tappet hydraulic lifter cams are really tough to keep healthy nowadays, even many of the modern synthetic oils don't provide the protection that the old high zinc(ZDDP) oils used to have. Amsoil has a good one, but, not everyone has access to that. Modern engines with all roller valvetrains don't need near as much lube film(much less friction) and can run much lower viscosity lube.. |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Ignacio Colorado | We can start by saying it was not the original engine or it would have had the big rods. The very late coaches didn’t have the big rods but up to at least #902 did. If it was 100-150 hp down it wouldn’t have run like it did. Your guy must only think race crap.
The stock RV 440 camshaft had .430” valve lift. I’m running a camshaft with .366” valve lift. Also smaller valves. Nobody would think this a smart change. They would say, “I thought you wanted more power! Well I got more useable power that is right where it counts now that I have the 0.69 overdrive.
With the stock 440 pulling the steep grades at high elevation I would have to go to first gear and back out of the throttle. I could run through first and catch second gear but it could not hold second. I would have to drop back into first. Now with the torque down where it is needed I can run second gear at 2,500 rpm up the steep grades. If it was to drop rpms it is only coming down into its peak torque curve and more power is waiting. Not like the more, more, more attitude that winds up running worse where you need it.
Better breathing intakes and exhaust would seem smart but they only gain power on the top end. Smaller port (runner) intakes and single exhaust make more low rpm torque! Yes the broken record speaks again. Less is more!
Bill |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | Well it's been 4 months since you removed the bumper...(insert finger tapping here) |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | I've been polishing it...
You should see it!
Way too busy of late and a couple'a health issues tossed in for good measure didn't help much either.
Will get back at er' soon but don't even think about me getting it done like you did Lenny; 'Joe the Fabricator' I ain't.
If I fall somewhere in the middle of the completion time-span of yours and Stephen's - I'll be dancing!
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Well I finally completed the parts deal with my friend Jay in Arlington, WA.. Jay previously owned #614 and parted that out before buying an MCC (Barth) with Cat/Allison running gear.
After not being able to sell the MCC in a timely fashion, he contacted me to ask if I was interested in any of the parts.
I said, "YES" unequivocally.
It took two trips down to Jay's place to get it done, one in early March and then again last month, but thanks to Jay's generosity and hospitality (and some much needed help and direction from Stephen) I now own a converted 3.73:1 differential, a full set of disc-brakes and six 22.5" (6-lug) Alcoa's.
FWIW: I've also scored a 47RH transmission here on the Island and have posted some measurement comparisons between the (4x4) 47RE vs 47RH overall lengths.
Bottom line: if you plan to use a 'Stubby' (4x4) version of either of these units to get yourself an overdrive, the RH brings another 5" in length to the table.
http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/photos/photo-thumbnails.asp?albumid...
Hope to get back at this soon as time and resources permit.
Cheers,
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | Detailed pics and descriptions of the brake parts would be of interest to many. Also pictures of the stamped on part numbers of the 6 lug alcoas. Sounds like a good score of parts. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Yeah, figured the diff stuff might get some people interested, too. Not.
Need to get going on the diff swap then try to figure out how I can build and configure the trans so I get some miles out of it.
Wheels and brakes will be last and I may wait a while before I do them, but I will try to get a pic of the stamping on the wheel for you.
Cheers,
Terry
#846
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | If you install both those taller tires and those higher gears then you are going to have to some pretty significant power mods to the 12v to keep it from being a total dog off the line...you will also need that (extra power) to keep your overdrive from being all but useless on anything but flats.
A stock Dodge 3500 pickup with that same engine/trans combo that came with 3.73 gears would have also come with 28" tall tires, if you were towing 9000lbs with that truck(to match your FMC weight) you would have just shifted out of overdrive for the duration (maybe used it on some downhill flats) of your trip. That's with 28" tall tires. The smallest you can get for those 22.5's is going to be in the 35" range, if you put 35" tires on the truck I mention above you would definitely need to regear to 4.56-ish just to get back to where you were.
Of course you can build tremendous power with the 12v, if you are going that direction (fuel pump mod, bigger turbo, etc.) then what I said above is OBE. If you think you can run this set up with stock-ish power then you are going to find that you are lugging it a lot, the lugging leads to overheating and torque converter failures(if you haven't spec'd a heavy duty billet Torque converter for your 47rh you are going to be sorry).
I really encourage you to find a step van that came with a 12v 5.9/allison, those typically have a 2000 series allison with a stand alone controller. You will get the low first gearing you need, better control, and something that is actually designed for full time heavy duty use. If you are set on a mechanical trans and are not going to build engine power much (but still run 3.73/35"tire) then you'd be much better suited with an Allison 545, you would have absolutely no need for overdrive.
Edited by LCAC_Man 2019-05-07 7:08 AM
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Morning,
Okay, what's "OBE"?
Thanks for the response, Len. I think what you're saying has great validity. I am a carpenter who, while being pretty good with wrenches sometimes, is still a carpenter and it takes me a lot longer than you to sort stuff out. Patients is encouraged and yes, that could include a lot more 'finger-tapping'.
I discovered those 'rpm calculators' on the internet and fiddled with them a lot lately. And I agree, seems any way you slice it, 37" wheels with 3.73 gears and a .69 OD puts you in the Auto Bon' stratosphere with questionable low-end grunt. And while I do tend to run my coach with a heavy foot and at the least try to blow the doors off the odd Winnebago for posterity, I am doing this swap for two primary reasons: to dramatically improve the hill climbing ability and fuel economy.
With the stock diff, 37" wheels and the .69 OD, at 65 mph I'll still be under 1900 rpm. That's workable, I think.
So, on further consideration (including your additional input) I will hold off on the diff until the engine/trans work is done, then run it for a while to see how it goes. The tall lower gears on the 47RH are of a concern to me also. I'll keep the diff till the day arrives I want to take her to Bonneville and try to screw them guys with the GM mo-ho rocketship, or, I burn up the rotors and have to go back to smaller wheels and drums again.
My plan (subject to change, as it has a dozen times already :-o) is as follows:
- Engine: do KDP; 60 lb exhaust valve springs (for exhaust brake/to save my rotors); front/rear oil seals; install Badgerland propane system; 4" exhaust. My guess (hope) is this should put me closer to 300 hp and over 500 lbs/ft to the ground with modest fuel economy gains, lower EGT's and a considerably 'cleaner-burning' engine.
- Trans: rebuild with upgraded TC and increased line pressure in the valve body.
Will try to post more pics of the brake-parts and wheel stampings over the weekend.
It's Solo's (my dog) birthday today; he's 3 yrs old and officially not a teenager any more. Going to pick him up a big farkin' steak on the way home tonight.
Cheers,
Terry
#846
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Veteran
Location: Houston, Texas | Hey Andy, on ours we have the original rear end & 19.5 tires and if we want to use 6th gear, we have to cruise around 70 mph (where legal) in order for the 6th gear to be any good. (1800-1900 rpms) that's where we feel the best torque and no slow downs on small Texas hills, excellent torque and very little smoke, I just wish we had our new GPS cruse control already installed because if I don't keep an eye on the speedometer we can hit 80 mph (bragging) very easy...=
Rico & Carmen
397
12 V Cummins & 6 Speed Allison |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | OBE = Overcome by Events or obsolete
Rico's experience is much the same as mine, I set my trans in manual shift mode and set it to 5th, only occasionally do I tap up to 6th. I find that 1900-2000rpms puts me in the best inlet air/cooling water temps and is the right mix of being between torque/hp bands. Anytime I run lower in the rpm range all my temps run just a bit higher and the trans is more likely to shift around more often. If I'm in the hills I use the manual shift mode to stay at 2000-2100rpms and tap down for trans/engine braking as needed.
Edited by LCAC_Man 2019-05-08 10:13 AM
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | ricogomez - 2019-05-08 6:19 AM ... if I don't keep an eye on the speedometer we can hit 80 mph (bragging ) very easy...= Rico & Carmen 397 12 V Cummins & 6 Speed Allison LOL! I hear you Rico, coming back from my last trip East, I was anxious to get home and in sixth gear it was an easy cruise across Idaho at 80 mph (which is the speed limit on I-84) in sixth gear. Standard differential and 19.5 wheels. |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | What ? WHAT ? You mean if I change to a Diesel engine in my FMC . . . I won't get 50 MPG . . . or be able to cross the Grapevine in 10th Gear at 75 MPH ?
Acronyms ?
Here is another that comes from my days (daze?) in Unlimited Airplane Racing - BER = Beyond Economic Recovery or Beyond Economic Repair.
Never forget . . . we are all Charter Members of the TURD Polishers Club . . . The harder you rub . . . the duller it gets !
Press ON ! Lou #120
ps: www.crawlpedia.com/rpm_gear_calculator.htm
It is TIRE DIAMETER that applies , not rim diameter.
Edited by hemi354az 2019-05-08 11:32 AM
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Veteran
Location: Houston, Texas | Mr Stephen, hopefully the paint stripping didn't fall off while breaking the sound barrier.
one of the most important things we notice with our conversion is the difference when taking
off from a stop, I don't know if its because of the 6 speed or the diesel engine, either way we
like it, that's why we keep the rear skid wheels on just in case.
Rico & Carmen
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12 V Cummins & 6 Speed Allison |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | Rico, the difference leaving a stop is because of both the transmission’s deeper first gear versus the 727 and the higher torque of a Diesel engine at low rpm. I always keep a light throttle starting out as I don’t want to to twist one of the stub axels inside the rear hubs or the splines in the hub caps. Yes, I like it also! |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | BigRabbitMan - 2019-05-08 12:39 PM
I always keep a light throttle starting out as I don’t want to to twist one of the stub axels inside the rear hubs or the splines in the hub caps.
Yep, if you get into it too deep from a start you'll get some chassis shudder!
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Well all I can say at this juncture is that I'm envious of youse' guys and your grunty 1st gears. (reverse too!)
If it were not for my commitment to adhere to my 'economy-build' mantra - which suits my 'not-so-fat' wallet just fine - I would absolutely be more focused on an Ally, or, the 68RFE.
Sounds like your coach is working out fine, Rico. Go easy on the D-max guys pls.
Cheers,
Terry
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Hey,
Len, you asked for a pic of the Alcoa wheel stamp. Here it is: http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/photos/photo-thumbnails.asp?albumid...
Been mulling over this diff and final drive ratio BS and I'm finding myself still vacillating on using this diff or not. Would be easier to put it in before the engine goes in.
With 37" wheels and the 3.73-diff I can stay out of overdrive (4th) till about 55-60 mph (1863 - 2032 rpm). To my carpenter's mind, that's a good head of steam for climbing hills after you drop out of, or, into 4th. What am I missing here? The 6BT makes peak torque @ 1500 - 1600 rpm depending on the source of the reference.
The other thing that's rather intriguing to me is this: with the .69:1 47RH overdrive gear I could, with rest of the house in order, bust 100-mph at just over 2300 rpms, or, in a moment of greater lucidity - cruise at 80 mph at 1870 rpms.
Doable perhaps.
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | I don't understand your fascination with very low rpms at high highway speed, it's not at all realistic, you will lug that motor, you will overheat, you will have transmission failures.. You need to quit focusing on "peak torque @ 1500 - 1600 rpm" those are engine dyno numbers that have to be balanced with the peak HP numbers and biased with vehicle weight.
Even on a standard 12v pickup if you installed 37" tires you'd be under geared, how do you think that doubling the weight of that same vehicle wouldn't absolutely kill the performance?
Rico is giving you priceless info on this, he is running the factory diff gears with 33" tires and spends a lot of his time in 5th gear like I do, 5th gear is .71 so damn near a match to your .69 (with you having a bit of an advantage there), just going from the 33 to the 37 inch tires at that point takes you beyond the 6th gear ratio of the allison (which is only occasionally in use with the Duramax that makes more power)...why would you want to do a gear swap that would make your .69 OD all but useless??
Thanks for the wheel pics, I'll be interested in all details of the brake parts as well. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Morning,
Thanks Len. More sage-advice apparently falling on deaf ears. My Pa always said I had a thick head. I do appreciated the feedback.
Yes, obviously I'm having trouble getting my head around this.
I've got an old 95' Ram 12V with a 47RH (2wdr) that is my work truck; read, beater. That old bag of steel, along with other considerations, is responsible for convincing me to run with the Cummins for my coach. I tow a 6 x 10 box trailer with all my tools in it, so truck & trailer GVW around 8 - 9/K. The work it will have to do in my coach would be like adding the weight of another truck to the circus (6000/lbs).
Been running this truck for over a year now and it's apparent to me that the stock 12V just ain't happy running above 2000 rpm. This jives with what the trucker - I bought my coach engine from - explained to me. He said the 12V is most efficient cruising around 1800 rpm, give or take 100. He knew these engines.
If I run 37" wheels with the stock F-140/4.625:1 diff - it puts me well above 2000 rpm at 70 mph and slightly higher again if I have to find 36" tires (255/70 R22.5) in order to leave clearance to run a set of chains on the rears if need be. I'd then be pretty much limited to 60 - 65 mph highway speeds.
I'm likely not alone when I say that it's hard to keep my foot out of it when I drive my coach. In a nutshell (my head) I routinely find myself cruising well above 70 when conditions permit. I simply love driving my coach fast.
So, what to do?
I can't run taller wheels, that's a given. If I put the 3.73 diff in and end up not happy, the gears can be swapped out with say 3.91:1 or such.
Calculator says with the 3.73 diff I could drop a gear on the hills, climb them at 55 - 60 at 1800 - 2000 rpm. That's a good head of steam, no?
Or I could just slow down. I am getting older...
Terry
#846
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | I'd leave the diff as is and run it...it's not any easier to change with the engine out (IMHO) and I think after driving it, you'll find that you won't want to. At 16000-ish lbs (which is where you'll be after the swap) you will be boosting all the time, the engine will be loaded all the time and will need to move more water and air to stay cool, the extra rpm makes that happen. I've got a buddy with a COE Cat 3126 project that fought this idea as well, they make peak torque at less than 1500rpms...it took forever for him to accept that the only way to keep it from overheating on grades was to run at 2000rpm...
There are dozens of threads like this: https://www.cumminsforum.com/forum/94-98-powertrain/322955-cruising-...
Quite a few caution the low rpm and the effect of lower line pressure in the trans allowing slippage and excessive wear..
Edited by LCAC_Man 2019-05-12 12:51 PM
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Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | I hear what you're saying.
What am I missing here?
https://www.crawlpedia.com/rpm_gear_calculator.htm
3.73 diff + 37" tires + 1:1 (3rd gear) + 60 mph = 2032 rpm! (or, 1863 rpm @ 55 mph... or, 1965 rpm in 2nd gear @ 40mph)
Again, what part of this do I have wrong?
Thanks again for your patience while trying to edg-jima-cate me. Don't give up on me just yet...
Terry
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | My point is you keep talking about 2000-2200 rpms like it's too high to run, and what I (and many others) are saying is that is exactly where you should be running, with that transmission, at that weight, and those hwy speeds. In short I guess I'm rejecting your assertion that the Cummins "doesn't like" to run at those rpms, there's just too many testimonials that contradict that.
What you seem to want is the optimal rpm regardless of constraints; and if you were running an 8 or 10spd eaton/fuller trans you could have your cake and eat it too, but, you have boxed yourself in a corner with your transmission selection. |
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Veteran
Location: Houston, Texas | MY experience with our setup is that ours feels just right cruising around 1900 rpms, we get 11 - 12.5 mpg with our diesel generator running and with our original rear end gears and standard 19.5 tires/wheels...we changed the 60# springs on the intake & exhaust, changed the fuel pin, governor spring and turn the fuel pin down all the way on the VE44 pump, we also add 2 gal., of premium
gasoline most of the time when we fill up, planning on installing on the very near future a water/methanol injection systems to cool off the EGT's when climbing those long hills...
Terry, I wish you could inspect our installation to help you save money on the installation, is not a professional mechanic grade installation of course, because we did a lot of trail and error things with ours,
but we kept it as low tech as possible to save some money, after we finish it' looked like it had been in there since day one from the factory.
Rico & Carmen
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Location: Oceanside, CA | ricogomez - 2019-05-13 8:17 AM
I wish you could inspect our installation to help you save money on the installation,
It's a shame digital cameras and web posting images doesn't work in Texas...  |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | Hey Terry,
Before you go any further with the 37" diameter Tires . . . you may want to check wheel well CLEARANCE in your FMC.
Are you planning on very smoooooooooooooooth paved roads where ever you go ? Ever travel across an unnoticed Speed Bump ?
Bounce ON ! Lou #120
Edited by hemi354az 2019-05-13 5:18 PM
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Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Actually don't feel 'boxed' at all Len.
Confident that if I address the torque converter and valvebody with this trans - as has been common knowledge over the years - that I will save myself a chunk-of-change on the transmission end of things.
The $1500 I'll save - not having to buy a standalone - will buy my Pacbrake.
Thanks.
Terry
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Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | I wish I could see your coach, too, Rico.
One day I will and am looking forward to it.
Thanks for the info.
Terry
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Location: Houston, Texas | Hey Terry, we have an exhaust brake on ours and in my opinion is not that good, we can do much better with manually shifting our Allyson....
(I pressed reply while ago instead of submit)
Rico & Carmen
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Sounds like you might have an issue with the exhaust brake set up maybe. Not sure what it could be. Can you control the lock-up manually? Apparently you have to be able to lock up the converter in almost all forward gears for it to work properly. Shame to spend all that coin and not have it work right. Is it a Pacbrake, BD or what? No warranty?
Hope you get it sorted out.
Scored me another 47RH trans locally. Will build it for a spare, regardless I won't need it - right Lenny?
http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/photos/show-album.asp?albumid=191&p...
Ha-ha! Couldn't resist.
Terry
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | Rico has a 6 spd Allison which has a tow/haul mode that locks the torque converter at all times except when shifting. |
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Veteran
Location: Houston, Texas | Hey Terry, because of lack of knowledge when ordering our Allison we consulted with CAC Diesel Conversion in Florida, and based on our rear end gears, vehicle gross wt, engine HP & Torque they recommended us to go with the medium duty lockup torque converter,
If I had known how good it was going to work and lock up, I would have saved a good chunk of mula and skipped the exhaust brake....
Rico & Carmen
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12 V & 6 Speed Allison |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | The exhaust brake will help Terry out more than us with the Allison...the small 47RH clutches will be overheated so quickly that downshifting won't have any effect...thankfully he'll have a spare 47RH that he can swap in while at a rest stop...of course we won't hear about that, we'll hear that he's getting 25mpg and setting Bonneville speed records.
Edited by LCAC_Man 2019-05-19 8:15 AM
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Ignacio Colorado | Hmmm
My 94 Dodge 2500, no FMC but a 12 valve/47RH was purchased to haul cattle, yes bulls but not bullshit. Hard driving heavy loads no flat land crap. Top of the world. Red Mountain pass or Wolf creek pass. PAC BRAKE with the heavy “exhaust” valve springs, (don’t know why the intake springs would need changed as Rico has.
The PAC BRAKE rule is come down the hill in one gear lower than you go up. It works, good, no extra BS. No special way to keep the converter locked up. It WORKS.
Of course the ZOOM ZOOM BOOM club might not be satisfied but a real working truck has proven the cummins/47RH and PAC BRAKE for me.
Rico, do you run one gear lower on the way down than on the way up. They only work with some rpms!
Bill |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | No argument that on a pickup with proper axle gears(the best pull with 4.10s) and tire size that set up will work really well; you won't get much use from overdrive while pulling a load (and that would simulate the FMC weight) but, put 37" tall tires on that same set up and the story is completely different. |
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Ignacio Colorado | Ok before we got the cummins we pulled the same loads and same hills with a 440/727. Both trucks have 4.10 gears.
The FMC with a 440/727 comes down the mountain and has fine engine braking with the 8r19.5 tires.
My apples to apples info on hauling cattle is seat of the pants. My FMC 440 info is seat of the pants. I haven’t driven a cummins powered FMC but have to rely on the seat of my pants.
My FMC Mountain driving takes time but not so much brakes. With a Chrysler transmission first gear and no brakes, Allison trans 2nd gear and no brakes. Watch the ZZB club fly by. Smell them later cause they are on a pullout with smoked brakes.
Wish I’d driven Rico’s coach in Chama.
Bill |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Ha - ha! Touche' Lenny! Had it comin' I figure.
One things' for sure, all this drive-line shite is a steep learning curve for a carpenter and I've barely twisted a wrench on my project yet. Also have to admit I'm confused some on this exhaust brake stuff after these testimonials.
It's been my understanding that because diesel engines are more so 'free-breathing' than gasser's - with their throttle-plate's to choke off air flow - henceforth you don't get the back-pressure in the cylinders to slow you when you back off the throttle. This said, I also have a Cummins/47RH pick up similar to Billy's (with no exhaust brake) and when going down moderate grades then hitting the overdrive lock out button to drop a gear, there is 'some' noticeable slowing from the lower gear, moreover, if it's a steeper hill yet and I'm not going too fast, dropping it into 2nd will slow it some more but not too much. The heavier the load, the steeper the hill, the slower I need to go - the more it becomes evident that more braking power is required. Like #4 Hwy to Tofino here on the Island. There's places on that road where you have no option but to 'stand hard' on the service brakes just to keep things safe, even after dropping the 727 down into 1st.
So, back to youse-guy's and your 'Ally's. I would like to clarify just what category of 'trans-braking' you are describing here? My understanding is that some Ally's are available with 'retarders' that are very useful for slowing down, but I'm not sure they are available on the 1000-2000 series Ally's, nor am I sure that is what you guys' are describing here.
Again, my understanding is that in order for an exhaust brake to work effectively - without damaging your engine - you need heavier exhaust springs - assumably to prevent 'floating' - and you need to control TC lock-up in as many (or all) lower gears as possible.
Goerend's take on this: "Why would someone want first gear lock-up? If you are mountain towing on steep grades under 10 mph locking the TC in first gear would keep the trans temp down."
"Do you or will you have an Exhaust Brake? With an exhaust brake, the VB needs to be capable of downshifting through the gears while the TC is locked to maintain engine braking. All Goerend VB’s are capable of downshifting 4-3 while locked, but not all are made to shift 3-2 while locked. So the Exhaust brake must be indicated so the VB can be built accordingly."
When I finally get the disc brakes on #846, an exhaust brake won't be an option, it'll be a savior for my service brake's and extend the useful life of the rotors many fold.
Any more feedback appreciated.
Terry
#846
Edited by andy1canada 2019-05-19 9:55 AM
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | 1000 series allison does not employ a "retarder" per-se it does have the tow/haul programming that changes the shift characteristics(maintains higher line pressure and firmer shifting) and allows for locked torque converter in the lower gears which makes the trans braking more effective(so the programming accomplishes some "retarder" functions) .
I personally plan to add an exhaust brake to my rig for when I'm towing(most of the time), the tow/haul is plenty for an unloaded rig, but when you're towing 5500-7000lbs a little more resistance would be helpful.
I would think that a pacbrake brake on a cummins would be very effective, you do have to ensure proper pressure relief exist but Pacbrake knows that and their most recent brakes have it built in. The limiting factor (again) will be that you'll be in probably second gear when you are using it, your torque converter won't be locked and will be working hard, you will need to spend your money on a very good torque converter.. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | "All Goerend VB’s are capable of downshifting 4-3 while locked, but not all are made to shift 3-2 while locked. So the Exhaust brake must be indicated so the VB can be built accordingly."
Translation: you need to tell them (or, Revmax and/or a host of others who can build these) that you're running an exhaust brake so they can... "be built accordingly". Thus, yes, my TC will be locked and running cooler.
You are spot on though that the 'stock' 47RH did not feature a lock-up capability in 1st or 2nd gears. But it's doable.
From the Pacbrake site:
"Vehicles with 47RH/RE transmissions which have aftermarket valve bodies and aftermarket lock-up torque converters
which are able to hold lock-up during exhaust braking in 1st and 2nd gears can use the later 48RE programming.
To change the existing program within the Pacbrake control unit, simply locate the orange wire with a spade
connection approximately 6 inches from the control unit. Disconnect this connection. Turn the ignition ON. The
exhaust brake should cycle 3 times confirming the 48RE program has been loaded. The difference between the two
programs is that the 48RE transmission will allow exhaust braking in 2nd and 1st gears, where the factory 47RH/
RE transmission will not. Test drive the vehicle. If lock-up will not hold during exhaust braking in 2nd or 1st gear, reconnect
the orange wire."
Great info on that PDF!
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=5&ved=...
Terry
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | Goerend builts excellent stuff, save your pennies, you'll be at $2500 just in a good converter, valve body and rebuild kit and that's if you do the work yourself..
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Veteran
Location: Houston, Texas | Hey Bill, when changing the governor spring in the VE44 pump for more rpms, they recommended you to also change to 60# intake springs,
we haven't gone any higher than 24 - 2500 rpms so far.
Bill, you are welcome to drive our rig when we stop by to pickup our rear louvered door.
hey guys, I figured it out on how to load more pictures in our original album for our 397....
it was operator error and not a computer error....
Rico & Carmen
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Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Great news Rico! Really looking forward to seeing the pics.
Especially the part where you show us (okay me) how you stuffed a freakin' Cummins in the arse-end of an FMC!
Cheers,
Terry
#846
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | LCAC_Man - 2019-05-19 7:33 PM
Goerend builts excellent stuff, save your pennies, you'll be at $2500 just in a good converter, valve body and rebuild kit and that's if you do the work yourself..
Yeah I hear you Len. Trans ain't no place to skimp.
Will also be looking around locally here on the south Island and Greater Vancouver area to what's available. BD and TCS are both based up here, too.
Terry
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Check out these mo-fo's!
https://www.airbagit.com/Air-Springs-Air-Bags-p/baga-4400-triple.htm
Not sure how you'd fit em' in?
I bet Len - 'Mr. Fab-all' - could figure it out!
Terry
#846
Edited by andy1canada 2019-06-01 12:23 PM
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | Nice heavy duty units but a bear to package...12" diameter makes locating them more of a chore (read=more fab work) |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Yeah, I hear you, but they would be - 'fab' ulous!
Jack that sucker right-up...
Terry
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Was thinking about this air-bag business and thought while we're at it, maybe you (Len) and whoever else wants to contribute, that we might clarify a few things about them.
Truthfully, I don't know dick about them beyond the obvious: you use compressed air to raise/lower the attitude of the vehicle.
So, here's my question(s) stupid or otherwise:
- when a given airbag is rated to lift, say, 2500/lbs (x 2 = 5000/lbs), does that equate to being able to adequately support an additional 5000/lbs behind the rear axles, or, to put it another way, would it reduce that same weight (5000/lbs) on the rear axles (the OEM bearing-point) by transferring that weight rearward to the top of the bag-mount on the chassis?
- if, while considering the Cummins extra weight, a guy wanted to level the rear of the coach, or, actually lift the entire coach with an air-bag system to gain some ground clearance for certain driving conditions, what is the formula one would use to calculate your required bag-specs to do this? Would you simply match the front and rear GVW's with the same lifting capacity of air-bags on each axle, or, could you anticipate/calculate that a system with a lifting capacity of say, 50% of a given axles GVW would still provide 'X' amount of lift, just not as much as a matched GVW set up? This carpenter's-brain wants to understand this.
- finally, if a guy wanted to lift the entire coach, say 3" - what would be the limiting OEM suspension/driveline components?
We have a chassis-mounted diff with slip-yoke style propeller-shafts designed to allow a certain amount of lift/compression of the rear suspension; it's apparent to me that these yokes only have so much travel to full extension. What is that tolerance as it equates to raising the ass-end of these coaches? Suppose I should go out and have a look at the loose prop-shafts I have now. Would be some geometry involved and if anyone else has already figured it out - please do share.
As always, any and all input appreciated.
Terry
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | Adding air bags behind the rear wheels transfers part of the weight of the coach from the frame at the pivot point of the torsion bars to the frame at a point behind the rear wheels. By transferring the support point rearward, the pivot/balance point of the body of the coach is shifted rearward and more of the existing weight is carried by the front axel and less at the rear. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Well said Stephen; even I understood it.
My mind was around the axle's as the rear load point; forgot about the torsion bar tubes.
In reality, wouldn't the rear shocks take some of the load as well, therein shifting that point back some towards the axles?
Terry
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | Yes, but only a negligible amount. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | Stephen is correct on all points. Shocks(in our application) are not load bearing "suspension" they are dampening devices. You only need to size air bags for the amount of "assist" you want, the original suspension is still carrying all that always has. I've never come close to running my bags anywhere near their max pressure/load rating and that's with towing a heavy load that was putting a solid 600lbs of tongue weight down on the rear.
Edited by LCAC_Man 2019-06-03 9:46 AM
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Howdy,
Been real busy with life lately but have managed to make a little more headway on the coach of late. Hard to make time it seems.
My brother in law made it over a couple of weeks back and we got going on the trans rebuild (47RH). We got the front section done except for the valve-body. Upgraded to a heavier duty reverse and 2nd gear band as well as other parts. Also got a killer shift-kit to put in that I'll get the tech at my trans-shop to do. This kit should raise line pressures and extend the life of the trans some. I'll also get them to do the overdrive section - with the notorious 800/lb direct clutch spring. When they take the overdrive apart, I'll run the output shaft to a local shop to have it drilled & tapped to bolt on the 'Sitton-Cruse' modified FMC yoke so I can bolt the works right up to the stock FMC slip-yoke drive shaft. Scored me a brake-drum style (23 spline) yoke for free on the weekend, well, not exactly 'free' - had to drive nearly an hour each way then climb under an old Winnie for a bit but it was worth it I figure.
Yesterday I got a little more done on removing the engine AC from the coach. Compressor is out and I pulled all three refrigerant lines out that run from the engine house to the front of the coach. Still got all the stuff in the front to rip out. Once the evaporator is out of there I'm going to install the 40 gal forward water tank (early style) that I got from my buddy Jay in Wa. This will give us sufficient water capacity for back-country forays and provide a good extra forward-ballast option if required.
If it's not obvious yet, I'm going with a single roof-air unit that will be run off our new inverter I picked up recently (Go Power: 3000 watt). Will add a second high-output alternator as well. Another one of Lenny's great ideas.
My goal is to get the engine, trans, new rad, intercooler, oil/trans coolers in sometime this season (before Christmas) so we can at least use the coach. Next year will be the disc brake/hydro-boost conversion with the 22.5 Alcoas. Then if there's anything left in the kitty - a paint job. Thinking of buying an HVLP set up to DIY.
Won't feel too bad at all seeing the last of the H-vacs in our coach.
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | Later this fall I'm going to be making some changes to my brake system (while finally installing my new drums and getting shoes relined). I'm going to completely split my rear brake control/boost from the front. I'll be using an electric power steering pump system and another hydroboost/MC for my rear only brakes and leaving what I have for fronts only. This puts me in a position to move to much larger (volume) calipers at a later date (if I ever get to that). |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | Wanted to be the first to wish your engine swap project a "happy birthday"! |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Go ahead... rub-it-in!
However, do have some progress on my airbag mounts and will try to post today if I get time. Building Solo a new doghouse today.
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Air-spring install update.
Finally got my air-bags done!
Pics here if anyone's interested: http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/photos/photo-thumbnails.asp?albumid...
If anyone needs any clarification or better pics, you know what to do.
Now onto the engine & trans.
Hope ya'all stay healthy & happy.
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Howdy,
Been a few months since I've updated this so thought I'd get going again.
Just realized this project is now over 2yrs running... ouch!
Will go back to where I left off best I can, then moving forward to where I am now so if anyone else ever decides to dive into the 12V Cummins circus, that maybe this might be of some use.
Concerning the Rockwell, I finished the three oil seal replacements and learned a bunch in doing so.
As I'm mostly working alone on this except when my mechanic friend/project supervisor, Liam, can make it over to help with the heavy '2-man' stuff and keep me pointed in the right direction when he's not here. Liam is shop-foreman at a large Chrysler dealership here in Victoria.
This necessitates that I actually have to 'think' to figure how to get things done by myself for the bulk of it. So, this is where my 1500 lb motorcycle lift came in very useful.
I screwed some wood blocking together and made a good jig to cradle the 400 lb Rockwell and lower it to the ground. It also made a good stand to work on it as it lifts it up fairly high.
I also elected to tear-up the old gross carpet in the back bedroom over the Rockwell then cut open the plywood floor (carefully, there's sheet-metal directly beneath it) in order to make easy access to the 4-nuts above the diff mounting bars. Take note of all large washer and rubber washer positions. Pics work great!
Also, when I finally got it out of the coach I took the two mounting bars to a local machinist and he re-drilled the mounting holes (4) 2" forward, buying me another 2" to shoehorn the Cummins in there. Did the job for $40 and I hope it's money well spent.
Updated some album pics: http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/photos/photo-thumbnails.asp?albumid...
Also a couple of Youtube shorties for your perusal: (hopefully the links are live)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PeaTWhtCdq8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_c4vCiR8b0
More later.
Terry #846
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Engine mounts etc.
http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/photos/photo-thumbnails.asp?albumid...
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Today is a very special day for yours truly...
Sorry this drags a bit, but there is a 'happy-ending'.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8zFIf0M2Uk
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | This one is shorter but with a bit longer run time...
https://youtu.be/xirxQ2htRw8
Terry
#846 |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | Congratulation!! You did it!! It lives!!
It’s a long pull to do one of these conversions and you can be proud of what you have accomplished to this point. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Finally got around to some album updates in the gallery.
http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/photos/photo-thumbnails.asp?albumid...
On to exhaust then aluminum radiator install...
Terry
#846 |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | A lot good pictures with explanations. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Thanks!
Got a bit of a push on to get'er back on the ground.
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Few more update pics...
http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/photos/show-album.asp?albumid=191&p...
Terry
#846 |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | Good pictures with good descriptions. This is the stage where you are dealing with all of the small but critical items involved with an engine swap. Keep it up and I look forward to the completion. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Thanks Stephen.
Few more pics of the rad installed - final.
New expansion tank comes next Friday. Yee-ha!
http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/photos/show-album.asp?albumid=191&p...
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Electrical gremlin:
Installed a couple of 12" LED strip lights (.28 amp ea.) in the engine house a couple of weeks ago. Yesterday I reefed out the two new cranker batteries that were in my way so I could address a couple of intercooler piping leaks that were hard to get at.
I disconnected and removed both batteries only to find that both of the LED lights on the ceiling were still flickering on & off. Clearly faint voltage but still visible.
F-ing' strange! No batteries in the coach - period.
Then I realized the coach 110-AC was plugged in and when I unplugged it the lights went out.
Stray 110 voltage somewhere?
Anyone had this happen?
Guess I should actually be able to measure it with a VOA meter (coach chassis to ground?) Would be interesting to know how much juice there is there.
Maybe this rouge-voltage is what's causing my new tach (alternator signaled) to be so erratic.
Not sure how to chase this down but will have to try to do something to find it. Not certain if I should worry about it but it's bugging me some.
I did relocate my AC power control box on the rear firewall to make room for other stuff. I also noticed that the 'hummm' of the box when plugged in is steadily louder than usual; previously, in its former OEM position, my power-box was notorious for occasionally humming really loud when first plugged in. I discovered that if I simply unplugged it in and out a couple of times that it would, in stages, get quieter until I could hardly hear it at all. Left there, we got a good nights sleep.
After I resolve my low-boost issue I'm going to see if I can chase this down. Think I'll start with the fried receptical outlet in the back bedroom that's been that way since I got the coach. Maybe there's a short in there that's not enough to trip the AC breaker but enough to be sending some juice to ground?
If there's AC current in the chassis, couldn't this wreak havoc with DC shit?
Since I pound nails for a living hopefully a better 'auto-electrician' than me might help point me in the right direction.
Thanks in advance!
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | don't you have an inverter/converter/charger? if you had shore power connected that may have still been making charge power.. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Thanks for the reply, Len.
Yeah I do. PD with Charge Wiz.
After reading your response I quickly went out and checked something.
It was far simpler than I imagined. Dumb, really. When I installed the new LED lights I also plumbed-in a new 'lighted' on/off rocker switch for them on the access door header. Although the batteries were out of the equation the switch was still in the 'On' position. Switched it off and the lights stopped flickering. Imagine that!
So, am I correct in assuming the AC current - beyond it supplying juice to the coach - was only part of the issue but also it was the batt-isolater backfeeding juice somehow?
Thanks again.
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Oceanside, CA | I have no idea how/where your charger is connected so it would be hard to say for sure...but...in general if you are providing power to the charge device (whatever that may be) and it senses any load at it's output, it will see that as a battery needing charge and will attempt to support it..
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Veteran
Location: Houston, Texas | Andy mi compadre, you need a "wood stretcher"
Rico& Carmen |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Si mi amigo, gracias. Yo no necesito mas madera... been a carpenter too long.
Terry
#846 |
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Veteran
Location: Houston, Texas | Hello my friend hope everyone is staying healthy,
how’s is it going with the project ? any updates ?
This forum has been very quiet for a while.
Rico & Carmen |
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Veteran
Location: Houston, Texas | Hello my friend hope everyone is staying healthy,
how’s is it going with the project ? any updates ?
This forum has been very quiet for a while.
Rico & Carmen |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Hola mi amigo!
Good to hear from you.
I'm re-insulating a small section of the bellypan before patching it over with sheet metal. No mi favorito trabajo. (?)
Then she gets her drive-shaft put back in and lowered back onto terra-firma.
I think I have brakes and steering again so I'm really looking forward to NO surprises.
Been a long haul on this project... I want to go camping.
Stay well mi amigo!
Terry
#846
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Got my belly-pan repair done last week and today - FINALLY - after 3 yrs & 5 months her front wheels are back on the ground!
No time to get the ass-end down today but should get to it tomorrow I hope.
Can't wait to find out what's what and take her for a spin.
Terry
#846 |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | Terry, that is super good news! That’s about how long it took me as well to put my Duramax into my coach. I was nervous when it was on the ground, wheel chocks pulled, engine running and time to slip it into gear! I slipped it into gear, lifted my foot from the brake, nudged the throttle and got a huge grin as I rolled forward!!
Happy travels! |
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Veteran
Location: Soquel, CA. | Fantastic! I have been a lurker here following your progress for the duration. Congrats!! Can't wait to hear about the test drive. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | #846 has had all four paws back on the ground for over a week now.
I have forward and reverse gears proven with but a measly 3 or so feet in either direction I can move it where it sits. Got a tent and some work benches behind it that need to be moved before I can back it out in front of the house where there's a good 80ft or so strip I can jostle it back and forth on to see if there's any surprises I need to discover before it hits the pavement.
Also tested the Avco brake-lock and am relieved it, too, is doing its job. Locks the rear wheels and holds the coach even if I slip it into gear and give it some fuel.
Been stupid busy with life and work but hope to get it out this weekend for more serious brake testing etc.
Will follow up with good news when it happens.
Terry
#846 |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | I am anxious for your report! |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Howdy,
Quote from Nov. 10th. 2018: "This will take a while as it will unfold as time and resources permit, so please be patient."
Well... 3 yrs - 5 months & 19 days later - TODAY IS ROLLOUT!
The first 'forward-reverse - see if it stops or steers test' is about to happen in my front yard.
Will try to take a couple of pics (maybe a video) and post them later.
Long time comin'...
Terry
#846 |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | Yay! I knew you could do it. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | ROLLOUT.
Long time comin'... 3yrs, 5 months & 19 days to be precise.
Available time to work on it, resources & covid all conspired to stretch this out way longer than I'd wished.
Sorry this video drags a bit but it took forever to 'armstrong' that bitch out of there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqrAR7QH7M
Still have steering issues (puking foamy fluid out of the pump reservoir) and may also have a brake dragging (notice the rear-right wheel catching in the video). Didn't help I backed her into the embankment either. Sure to be some bugs to iron out and I'm hoping the steering is the worst of it.
Count your victories... even the small ones.
Terry
#846
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Extreme Veteran
Location: Scottsdale, Aridzona | . . . 3 . . . 2 . . . 1 . . . BLAST OFF !
Well Done !
Lou #120 |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | Beautiful video Terry! You did you did good and the video is good and yeah that right rear was hanging up a little bit but you broke her free so that’s good. That means all is good. Now you need to fix those brake lights so they come on and then head on down here to Oregon. |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | Terry, you’re amongst a group of few people. In that you started a project and you have completed it. There are many projects that get started and are never finished. You are amongst the elite! |
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Veteran
Location: Houston, Texas | It’s alive!!!!!! It’s alive!!!!!! |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Few more steps forward today as I got a couple more gremlins ironed-out. Got a dozen or so miles on her now.
Last test drive (5-miles) a few days back, I discovered that I couldn't start out in 'D' (3rd) and had to manually downshift into 1st or 2nd to roll ahead with any authority. Reverse was fine. Backed up the steep gravel hill by our place for 40 yds or so without incident. On the test drive I headed up the hill right out of our driveway and gave her shit while shifting manually up the hill. Took off like a scared rabbit and my better angel slapped me good to slow down some. The trans wasn't downshifting on its own so my first suspect was the TV cable on my 47RH trans. Does the same thing basically as the kick-down linkage on the stock 727 set up. I've got both my lock-up converter and overdrive wired to manual switches on the dash. Neither of those appeared to be working either. The other issue was the trans got pretty hot on the couple of steeper grades I pulled, so I suspected my lock-up wasn't engaging. Steering was good and after stepping into her a couple of times I was hitting 22-23 psi on the boost gauge which answered some lingering intake air system questions.
This morning I adjusted the TV cable and also solved the OD & lock-up mystery. The fuse for the 12V + to the LU & OD solenoids was missing, ie. no circuit. Brilliant I thought. Replaced the fuse then fired her up for a quick back & forth in front of the house. Reverse was fine but soon as I put her in 'D' she'd stall out immediately. Freaky. So I left it to do some other shit and thought about it for a bit. Then it dawned on me: I recalled reading on the Cummins Forum about guy's who'd wired their 47RH LU & OD solenoids same as I did and remembered being cautioned about remembering to unlock the converter before you come to a stop - or it would STALL. I had my switches wired backwards! Next test drive went way better. I got overdrive now and lock-up in 3rd and 4th. The trans is also gearing up & down (1 to 3) as it should AND with the trans locked on a good portion of the test-drive I didn't see over 180 deg on the trans temps, vs 207' I was seeing the other day. Trans runs way cooler when it's locked. Only mechanical biggy left is my exhaust brake, which (in 3rd & locked) ain't slowing it down much if any. Will check function.
Little steps...
Terry
#846 |
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Expert
Location: Cottage Grove, OR | Your doing good! Just keep working it! |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Well I finally got #846 back on the ground and running today after a 7-month hiatus up on jack stands thanks to limited time and resources to work on her.
But I am HAPPY! Yep, one-happy-hippy!
Will update the album soon.
- New water to air intercooler system up and running.
- Honda EV4000 genset (circa: early 80's) now living where the old Onan once did. Brings about the same amp-output as the Onan did and 180/lbs less weight to the party.
Now it's on to the plastic welding up of a new forward 40 gal water tank.
Then... new fridge... new hot water heater... OMG when does it end?
Terry
#846 |
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Regular
| Good on you Terry, it is always an uphill journey-but usually fun when you get there. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Hope so, otherwise the old lady's gonna' ditch me for someone without a 'motorcoach addiction'. Better than booze & drugs I figure. Just retired from pounding nails for a living (started in 75' as the arthritis in my left ankle is a little too hard to reckon with these days. So, will find something else to do to make a buck and keep a roof over our heads.
#846 is running like a top!
Will provide more updates soon as I'd like to do what I can to try and build more traffic on here again. IMHO: with the demise of the Yahoo site and the rise of the Fbook site, that great sense of community that was built here over the decades is all but gone. I don't even get notifications of new posts any more. Otta check my notifications settings I guess.
Terry |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Medford, OR | Yeah Terry...It's about time you worked on it....lol. I haven't touched 324 since the last October rally.....ugg. Probably should go on the chopping block this Spring. We'll see. Hi Hal! |
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Regular
| Hi back to you Dan. Hope you don't sell, you will most likely regret it if you do.
The June rally is just around the corner-you will be there of course??? |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Surprised to hear that Dan-O... after the 'FMC withdrawal' you suffered through when you sold the last one.
Ya gotta' hang in there buddy... just another three or four years or so till I finish my swap and can get to another rally to meet up again! LOL |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | UPDATE: (finally)
Will be uploading more photos on my soon-to-be-finished build thread over the next couple of days. I can hear you laughing all the way up here in Canada, Lenny!
Will also post separate new threads on my forward water-tank addition and 12 volt DC fridge install for any who may be interested.
For now, I've added some rear air-spring mounting arm revamp photos if anyone's interested. The updates will go forward from pg. #18 in my build thread album.
http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/photos/photo-thumbnails.asp?albumid...
Happy Motoring,
Terry
#846 |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | On Intercoolers: (grab a coffee, I'm rambling some here...)
http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/photos/photo-thumbnails.asp?albumid... |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Weekend at the lake - Finally!
Got her rollin' again for 3-days at Lk. Cowichan here on the Island. These short trips are crucial to discovering any post-swap issues that need to be ironed-out.
This will be one of my last posts on the #846 Cummins Swap thread as I'm nearly where I wanted to be with this project and I've got an old B20 Bertram in my yard that's begging for attention.
#846 has spent the last year languishing under the tarp-shed letting me poke & prod her after being shamefully towed home on the hook of a Kenworth from her inaugural camping trip up Island.
Pics of her latest foray are here:
http://www.fmcowners.com/mbbs22/photos/show-album.asp?albumid=191&p...
Here's the skinny on the ups & downs so far on my execution of this project:
Handling:
#846 steers & corners better than it ever has and I have yet to service any of the front end suspension or steering assemblies. I suspect the addition of rear air-spings and the forward 35-gal water tank contributed to this improvement.
Power:
1) I don't feel the 12-valve has reached its potential yet in my application.
I'm not overly concerned about this as performance issues are easily diagnosed and resolvable with the Cummins. As well these engines are 'stupid-simple' and cheap to make more power with if needed. My goal all along was to leave the 12-valve as close to stock-tuning levels as possible, while significantly improving hill-climbing torque, fuel economy and overall reliability.
I'm nearly there, but here's what I've learning thus far.
Good:
- fuel economy seems outstanding and I'll report after she's stretched her legs through a couple more tank fulls. Only 600 miles on it so far.
- The 47RH is performing as I expected with no surprises thus far. Initial concerns about 1st. & reverse gearing being perhaps 'too tall' have pretty much evaporated. My lock-up and overdrive toggle switches - situated about 5" off my right knee - are exactly where they need to be and regardless that while underway the pilot needs to be more attentive to what the trans is doing - remembering to always 'unlock' before shifting in or out of OD - IMHO, I find it a blast to drive now while being more engaged in the shifting process; okay, not quite like yanking on the old 'Hurst' while chirping up though the gears in the old Camaro - but still a bunch more fun and engaging.
- My choice to install a new Pacbrake (MaxFlow 4" and increase the exhaust to 4" was maybe the smartest thing I did on this project. The larger exhaust is a tried & true easy power upgrade for a diesel (keeps EGT's low) and the throttle pedal actuated exhaust brake switch is as simple as it gets. When approaching a hilltop, or, needing to add more stopping/slowing assist in 3rd or 4th gear, with the torque converter locked and the Pacbrake switch activated, simply let your foot off the gas and engine-braking takes over. We have a pretty steep (and somewhat infamous) hill over here called the 'Malahat' and though it's only a mile or so up and down the two sections worth talking about, with the Pacbrake engaged I can now descend either side in both directions without touching the service brakes. To me - this is huge!
The not-so-good:
- I blew a silicone intercooler coupling-hose off once on the way up to the lake and again on the way home. What's a trip in an FMC without having to crawl under the bitch at the side of the road? I now know why it's important to make sure you BEAD-ROLL all piping ends on your charge air system. I saw 20-psi boost on my turbo gauge for the first time. Not sure yet if this is sufficient as she's not climbing hills as well as I'd like (sub-40mph) but this could be that there's charge-air leaks in the system still. Easy fix.
Rolling on...
Terry
#846
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | GVW after Cummins swap?
Forgot to add I ran her over the weigh scales on the way home from the lake.
Points to consider on weight additions to #846:
- + 300/lbs with extra water tank up front
- + 400/lbs with the 12-valve
- + 100/lbs with the air-spring assemblies
* Honda EV4000 genset is 170/lbs lighter than ole' Onan it supplanted.
#846 GVW
Payload: approx 2/3rds full water & waste tankage; 2-adults and 100 lbs of dog.
Front axle: 5368-lbs.
Rear " ": 10120-lbs.
Total: 15,488 - lbs. |
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Regular
| That should give you about 12 lbs of extra 'stuff' you can carry. |
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Elite Veteran
Location: Victoria, BC. Canada | Yeah, it's gettin' up there. One thing I should have done at the scale was check the air spring pressure to confirm they were both equally inflated to 25 lbs or so then weighed her front and rear... then let all the air out and weight it again. I'm anxious to confirm (or otherwise) the idea that air springs actually can/do transfer weight from back to front and if so, is it significant? Will report if/when I remember to do it. That's a whole nother' smoke, remembering.
Terry
#846 |
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#846 Cummins Swap.